Episode 227: Can AI Replace Teachers?

Ep.227.txt

Robin Potter

Welcome back to another episode of the School of School podcast. I'm here with my two favorite podcast hosts, Adam and Andy. How are you both?

Adam Gifford

I was wondering what was going come after Favours. Podcast host, alright, we'll take that. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, no, we're not made that list Andy, podcast host. How many other podcast hosts do you host with, Robert? Just out of interest. Anyway, we'll move on. We'll move on.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, I just, I would have thought just people would have been probably just easier.

Robin Potter

Ha!

Robin Potter

Well...

Robin Potter

you

Robin Potter

Okay, anyway, what we were talking about before I introduced you was, well, no surprise here, talking about AI and could AI replace teachers in the classroom and do it well?

Do it better? Do it successfully? Hmm. What do you think? Adam, I'm going to start with you.

Adam Gifford

Well, I read an article the other day. think I want to say Arizona, but it's definitely in the States with the school now where it is. It's a fee paying school. It was I think I don't know. It's all relative, I suppose, in America, but it was expensive. It was an expensive school. It was at least $50,000 a year, which I'd consider it's probably, you know, a reasonably expensive fee paying school in America. Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but people are choosing this school. And I saw pictures of it with the children. They've all got their own laptops or

you know, whatever device that they had. And they've developed a program where it is AI driven. And I just really wasn't sure about it. I wasn't sure about it because the article was the article and it sort of said what it was and here's a school that's now using AI and suggestions, you know, this is the way of the future and all sort of stuff. But I suppose what worried me is in all of the pictures, none of the children were talking to each other.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

And so were they

Adam Gifford

Like now that might just be the way that they shot the picture, right? So I'm not saying that they don't do that. But the...

Robin Potter

But were they sitting there with their laptops on their laps staring at their laptop and.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, all of them were like every child has their own. Yeah, and it's effectively the sort of saying it's personalized learning. So it will adjust to you. You put in and it will respond and do all those sorts of things. I think, you know, we all know what it's capable of and it can be incredibly useful. And I was talking to my partner just the other day and saying, you know, AI will just be we talk about it in all sorts of different ways at the moment, but it will just become the Internet. We don't talk about how well people use the Internet in the same way at the moment.

Robin Potter

Right.

Adam Gifford

it will just become it's life like AI will just be life but I suppose that was the thing that jumped out to me is that the one thing about learning and people learning off each other be it social situations being spending time with your grandparents or just you know just just traveling or doing what it's a social activity like it requires that response and critique and reflection and we're social creatures

And I think that's a really important role at school. So I don't know, it might've just been the pictures, but that's what I saw. And I thought, gee, after knowing, you know, like we've been through the pandemic where it was really difficult to speak to people and just interact with people normally. And you're thinking, is that what we're gonna create? I don't know, I don't know, but it freaked me out a little bit. Yeah.

Robin Potter

Right.

Robin Potter

And so, okay, so purpose then of them being there besides spending a lot of money on getting this very focused education would be that then they shut their laptops, they get up and they go outside and play together or something. then, so the whole idea is it's still a social, I'll put it in.

Adam Gifford

Sure.

Adam Gifford

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

air quotes, environment for children to gather and have that somewhat of that connection, not necessarily in the classroom, but at least when they're not looking at their computers. Yes. But I, yeah.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, and I might be doing a school with this service, right? So I don't know enough about it. All I'm saying is, is that that looking at that and having that sense of here's your personalized learning and by that, it's personalized to you, there might not be crossovers because your mate next door might be doing something completely different or whatever else. I think it was just that aspect of it that, you know, is socialization only for when you're not learning or I don't know. It was just those things that when I read the article, I was really intrigued. I was really intrigued by them.

Robin Potter

right?

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Robin Potter

It is difficult to imagine that there is much interaction if it's very personalized learning. Because you can't turn to your neighbor, even if you were both looking at your computer, you can't turn and say, hey, did you get that? hey, how did you figure this out? Because they're doing something maybe at a different speed than you. So it doesn't.

So I think you're kind of, mean, I have the same vision, Adam, that it, to me, there's just a lack of interaction that normally goes on in a classroom setting. And that to me is also somewhat disturbing because, and not that it may go that way, but it's hard right now to envision.

children not interacting with each other, you know, and problem solving together to find an answer.

Andy?

Andy Psarianos

I'm just like so I had so many so many things to say about this. So so I guess So the The sort of cop-out answer is yes, right? Yeah AI could replace a teacher, right? The more important question is is that a good idea? And and and the answer is almost certainly not

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Right. At least not yet. You know, because it's kind of like if it what is a teacher. Right. Was it just like a teacher. Just like a forever kind of, you know, assessing your

Ability and modifying tasks to you know, what they call adaptive learning right to you know, yeah Well, there's kind of a social experiment that that sort of works along those lines. I think it's called tik-tok or something, right and that's Relatively not you know, it says that adapting to what you're doing, right? Doesn't so far. I don't see anything useful coming out of that, right? so Okay, so you need to put some constraints on it, but

But again, it's not even the right question. It's like, can you transfer a bunch of knowledge from a machine to a person? Yeah, you can. But if the machine knows all the answers anyway, why do you even need this knowledge? Why don't you just get the machine to do it for you, right? Like, what's the point of learning what the machine knows? It's not useful, right? So there's a more fundamental question at this. Like, why not ask the question, could a AI replace a parent?

Wish you, of course it could, right? Is that gonna create a well-balanced socially adjusted child? Yet to be seen, right? So, you know, could it evolve to a point where maybe you could have like, you know, some kind of like robotic, you know, Tesla optimists that...

Robin Potter

Sure. It could.

Andy Psarianos

that's kind of like looks like a person and you're getting into sci-fi here and then it could raise a child and teach them and all that kind of stuff and be everything. Yeah, maybe probably not in our lifetimes, right? But you know, if you watch enough sci-fi or read enough sci-fi books, it's not a new idea, right? You know, that this could exist, but why? Like what's the point? what's the advantage of it?

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

We don't have to hire teachers. Is that what we're trying to get at or is it going to be better? Well, look, so the answer is I think that AI can enhance learning, right? But it can't, it's never going to be.

Robin Potter

to take jobs away.

Adam Gifford

Mm.

Andy Psarianos

Teacher in any kind of way that I understand a teacher at least not with present technology, right? and a teacher is someone who who is a Sentient being in a room that has That can respond to what's happening in that room to create a wonderful learning environment

Adam Gifford

you

Andy Psarianos

You know, and that's what a teacher is, right? A teacher isn't a person who has all the knowledge, who transfers all the knowledge to the people. If that's your view of a teacher, then you might as well fire all the teachers now and just use AI, because it's going to do it better than any teacher, right? So, yeah.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Yeah, totally agree.

Andy Psarianos

You know, there's a lot more to teaching than just transferring knowledge.

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Absolutely, absolutely.

Andy Psarianos

Cause you know, like I don't know anybody who's ever had a conversation with anyone knows that most of the stuff you say is not, especially if you talk a lot like me, most of what you say, people don't remember, right? They kind of shut down at them. You know what I mean? It's not like, it's not, I don't mean that in any kind of ridiculous way, but like I could talk to somebody all day long. How much, how much would I really expect that they remember what I said to them?

Adam Gifford

I was listening to this.

Andy Psarianos

Not very much, right? So because that's not how you learn, right? It's not about people just telling you stuff. I could sit and read the dictionary to you. Okay. You sit there and I go, we start a page one of the dictionary right to the end. And we could do it till we're finished, right? However many days or months that took. Would you have a better vocabulary at the end of it?

Adam Gifford

highly unlikely. might get a few key words. Exactly.

Robin Potter

Probably not. I might learn a new word.

Andy Psarianos

You'd be so bored. Right? Okay, so let's make it fun and engaging. I'll speak with different accents and I'll, you know, wear funny hats and you know, is that gonna help? Like, no, there's more to learning than just, you know, it's not like there's a lot more to learning than that, right? So.

Adam Gifford

And I think it's such a good point because so much of our accountability is around what you know. It's the knowledge that you take away and we break them down into certain subjects and that's how we measured in education. But I think that role, what you're saying about every classroom is so unique because when you get 30 individuals there and a teacher,

You've got to try somehow to make that dynamic work. And these are all jigsaw pieces, each child, that don't quite fit together, you know? Like, it's not that straightforward. And I usually use sports analogies, but I was listening to something over the weekend, and they were talking about the best coaches they've ever had. And they were sort of saying that the best coaches got the best out of the players most of the time.

But the skills that if you had a plan for that, sometimes it was impossible to plan for because I don't know, player A might be down to run five kilometres for their practice run on Tuesday. That's the absolute, they've measured everything to the end and 5K on Tuesday is the optimum to be ready for Saturday.

Yet if something terrible's happened overnight or whatever, you know, like those sorts of things. Sometimes there's decisions where they say, do you know what, Robin, take Tuesday off. Just take Tuesday off, go for a walk. And that might be that, like it's those sorts of things. And yeah, I'm sure AI will get to a stage where it will start to pick up on facial expressions and do enough data gathering that it can start to get better at that.

But I think that that idea that we're trying to bring the best out of 30, trying to make social cohesion, doing all of those sorts of things that doesn't get measured in a school, that we don't know goes on every second of every day in classrooms all over the world, that's a really tough skill set, you know? And you get it wrong, and we've all experienced that when it goes wrong, it's detrimental to learning. And when it goes right, it's wonderful.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Adam Gifford

It's absolutely wonderful. I don't know if you've ever had this week with your children saying, do you know what? My son, my daughter is really, this year, really firing, you know? Same curriculum, same stuff, same, you know, all of those sorts of things. How come? How come? You know, you can do all the personalized learning in the world, but if they don't want to learn from that person or they don't want to do this, okay, well, you know.

Robin Potter

Right.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, yeah

Adam Gifford

And so I'm really pleased that when you talked about that, that part of it that sometimes, I don't know, we don't talk about in the media because it's difficult to quantify. But the importance of it, you only need to know if you've got your own children or nephews, nieces, next door neighbours, whatever. You know the impact that that can have.

Robin Potter

Yes.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Robin Potter

And even you talking about coaching, know, the first thing that I was thinking of when we were talking about AI, but it does apply to coaches as well, would just be the whole idea of a mentor, right? You know, there are certain teachers you look back on and you have very, very fond memories of because...

for whatever reason, they made you passionate about your learning or whatever it is. And I think sport and whatever. I think, okay, is it gonna, would that ever get to that place with AI where you're looking back fondly at one particular AI named Joe and...

Andy Psarianos

Or sport or yeah, whatever.

Robin Potter

And boy, you really remember Joe fondly, right? I mean, really inspired you to do better. I mean, maybe, but, it's kind of sad if that's where our lives are getting to.

Andy Psarianos

Well, it's it's a, it's, you know, it's, these are philosophical questions, right? but if you, if you look at, kind of what, how people have thought about this a lot, like a lot of science fiction writers have thought about this kind of stuff a lot and have written some pretty compelling.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

scenarios, which you could see, you know, technology getting to a point where, maybe you could have a, a, digital digital, maybe not even the right word, like a, a artificial artificially created being that, that could replace a lot of these things and, and, and that people would, would

feel attached to. mean that it's not a crazy idea right but we're not there yet. We're pretty far from that still but if you think about it from a point of view of like okay is this useful technology like can we use this to improve teaching. There's no question about it right. There's no question about it like we should be looking at this seriously. There's a lot of reasons why you might want to use

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Psarianos

the latest technology in this case, real, you know, what, people are calling AI to teach more effectively and more efficiently. Absolutely. And, and, that, and that doesn't even end at school. It's like, I, you know, I use AI all day, every day, multiple AIs, mostly, you know, large language models to, help me with my work every single day, all day long. That's what I do.

And And it's amazing. And it just increases the velocity. And it's just crazy things like I'm creating a complex database. And I'm like, how do you create a da da da da da da da da da da? Boom, there's the code. Like, wow, OK, blows my mind. If I tried to work that out on my own, it might have taken me two hours. This took two seconds. I look at it. I go, oh, yeah, of course you would do it that way. Then plunk it in, and it works. And then I can get on with my life. That's great. Why wouldn't you want that, right?

Robin Potter

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

but I don't think it's going to replace me yet, right? And the work that I'm doing, because it does get stuff wrong quite a lot. And you know, especially when you get more philosophical or whatever. So yeah, it's a tool, it's a tool and we've got to use it and we've got to use it to its full potential. But you know, teaching is not

Robin Potter

yet.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Not yet something that I think AI can replace, maybe at some point in the future. But I don't see it. I don't see why you would want to. Like if we get to that point, it's like, you know, you're an algebra sports team. like if you could get a machine to coach your players to be better, well, why don't you just have the game with a bunch of machines, right? Like why put the person in the middle? You know, is computer against computer. It's like the whole.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

curriculum resume thing that's going on now, right? So people are using AI to write their like job applications and their resumes, you know, to varying different degrees. And then it goes to a large corporation with sifts through all of them with some other AI, right? To pick out the best candidates. Okay. Just like, Hey, why don't you get your AI to talk to my AI?

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Like why even put it on a piece of paper and send it over? Right? Like it's kind of dumb, you know? It makes no logic. It's like type something out, print it out, fax it to them so they can use character recognition to work out all the words to put it in a computer. Just fricking email them the document. It's inefficient process, right? Well, how far are we from just like AI just decides what everybody does for a job?

Robin Potter

Yeah, exactly.

Robin Potter

All right.

Andy Psarianos

Like why even fill out resumes? Right? Hey, Andy, you know, you should, you really should be driving a garbage truck. That's really what you're making, you know, off you go, right? Robin, you should be running the sports team, you know, Adam, you've done enough time to retire, you know, like why not? Why not just do that? Right? You know,

Robin Potter

Right.

Adam Gifford

You

Adam Gifford

There's the premise of a really good sci-fi book Andy. The state decides. This is it.

Robin Potter

Yes. Ooh, I like it.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, well, you know, why not? Right? Like it already is. We're just putting bits of paper in between, right? You know, I mean, it's not for small companies, but you can guarantee big companies to get thousands of applications a day and guarantee you any money. They're using high, high level AI. It's either AI or AI like technology.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

to sift through these things to pick out the candidates, right? Like maybe you'll get a short list or two or three, you know, out of 10,000, you know, because what human being is going to sit there and do that? Nobody, right? Yeah. So, you know, especially now, mean, it's not, you know, math's no problem. That's not going to happen because there's like, you know, we're a small company, right? But it's all going to go that way, right?

Robin Potter

Nobody. Especially now.

Robin Potter

Yeah. Okay, so we've concluded that AI in the classroom can be very helpful if used in the right way, but we don't see AI currently taking over or replacing teachers because we're missing that human connection. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.

Andy Psarianos

Anyway.

Andy Psarianos

No. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. But it's even, yeah, it's just that teaching isn't just a transfer of knowledge, right? But the transfer of knowledge bit could be done better with AI probably.

Robin Potter

No.

Robin Potter

Yeah.