Episode 225: Culture responsive teaching

Robin Potter

Welcome back to another episode of the School of School podcast. I am here with the usual suspects, obviously eager, Andy and Adam. How are you two?

Andy Psarianos

Yes.

Andy Psarianos

Yay.

Adam Gifford

Hi Robin. You're really welcome.

Robin Potter

See how keen Andy was? He's, yeah, yes, I'm here. Yeah, well, don't we all? So we were chatting a little bit before we pushed the record button and we were talking about culturally responsive classrooms. You know, now I feel like I just...

Adam Gifford

Keen. Keen.

Andy Psarianos

I love the School of School podcast.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, or culture responsive teaching, I think is, Yeah.

Robin Potter

culturally responsive teaching. So we were celebrating all backgrounds. We were saying this was the topic and we could go a few ways on this. So who wants to start and the stage for the conversation?

Andy Psarianos

Well, I, you know, I can start because like right now in the midst of, um, creating a, a, uh, regionalized, uh, curriculum for a province in Canada. And, and then you say, okay, well, look, we can do what happens most of the time for children, which is we just put whatever we have in front of them. And without even really thinking about any of the context and anything, it's just focusing entirely on.

mathematics and so on and so forth. But, or do we put the effort in to make sure that it is a

a reflection of, of the culture, right? That can mean all kinds of different things. is it worth, is it worth the effort? You know, because it's hard and it takes a lot of effort and it's easy to get wrong, right? And offend people. Do we even go down that path? Or we just say, man, you know what, let's, let's just do the bare minimum here. So I guess that's, that's kind of.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

to me that's what it means. Right? Do you put the effort in? Because, know, is it, important is it? So, mean, I had

Robin Potter

How important is culture?

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. How important is it for to be conscious and to adapt for the cultures that are meaningful to the people you're trying to teach.

Robin Potter

Yes.

Robin Potter

Right. So as an example, go for it, Adam.

Adam Gifford

And I think, I think too, I mean, you might want to carry on with an example or anyone's gonna come up with something else, either or. I was just gonna say, think that's that importance of being able to see yourself in something that's really important. So education's really important. And I always think, you know, like, if you don't see yourself reflected,

Andy Psarianos

There you go. You go.

Robin Potter

I want to hear what you say.

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Adam Gifford

You know, like in lots of places and certainly education's full out. Education in New Zealand was full of that. know, Māori history, Māori culture. Certainly when my father was growing up, there was no, no, very few, like if any opportunities to say my culture's valued. You know, like in school and in education, everything that we're using.

Andy Psarianos

Hmm. Hmm.

Adam Gifford

is it doesn't reflect that my culture is valued. And I think that that's probably been true in lots of places for a long time.

Andy Psarianos

yeah. And even worse, you know, I mean, like, if, if I, if I think of my own education and what, what, and, you know, what I remember of it, because I might have, I might have been, but what was emphasized and what I remember of it was like, you know, that, so the,

the first peoples of the country, of the land that we live on was like, the stories that I knew about them was so-and-so came over from France and, you know, won, you know, we built a fort, we won, and then we claimed the land, you know, that was like, I'm very summarizing, but, you know, remember the date, remember the name of the person that came over from France or came over from England and conquered the land, and this is when he did it.

And we didn't talk about any of the people that were like, yeah, we didn't know what their names were. Right. We didn't know anything about them. We just we knew they were Iroquois or they were Huron or they were whatever, know, Mic Macs or whatever. But we beat them. We won. That's what's important. And that that's all we. Yeah. But, know, there's a lot of these people who live here. Right. Still, the descendants, you know, and they have their own ideas and their own worldviews. And and they get left behind in education. Right.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Adam Gifford

No.

Robin Potter

No. No.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

because their worldview isn't reflected in what's being taught. And their worldview, can guarantee, is very different than so-and-so came over from France and killed a whole bunch of people and took over the land. That's not what they remember. And that's not the story they told, you know?

Robin Potter

Yeah.

But even on a much more, I guess, simpler observation, I was just thinking, I just remember having textbooks and they're American textbooks and it was in US currency and it would be telling something, giving an example perhaps, and it was all US-based, maybe some historical information.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Robin Potter

I mean, there's so many times, and I'm this Canadian kid, knowing more about what's happening in the past, the recent past of the US, than I do about my own culture and what's happened in Canada. So absolutely, we haven't given enough, you know, I guess we haven't given enough credit for

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Robin Potter

our indigenous ancestors that were here long before the Europeans came over. But on top of it, we haven't even given ourselves any credit for things that happened in the more recent past because we couldn't be bothered to get our own messaging into the textbooks that we were using when I was growing up. And I think all of that is doing us a disservice.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, yeah.

Robin Potter

it was probably taking the cheaper route because the books were already created. They weren't going to change the textbook for us. We just took them and used them. that's very different than with our particular product, with Maths No Problem. I mean, we do try to make it culturally important to wherever it is that they're using the books.

Andy Psarianos

But, but it's not, it's, but the first peoples are not the only people that need to be represented. Right. And that's it. And that's the thing. So it's like how much, how much balance and what do you do when it gets difficult? Because sometimes you have conflicting worldviews and you know, a great example will be you've got a community.

Robin Potter

Yeah, let's go put the button.

Robin Potter

Right.

Andy Psarianos

and, and, and, and, this is not meant to offend anyone or, or, or, or put out any personal points of view. I'm just trying to highlight complexities, right. In, in this where you've got one community whose worldviews are very, very counter to another communities and they're both prevalent in your environment. So just to give a practical example, you've got.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Some views, let's say LGBTQ views and ways of wanting to interpret the world. Right. And then you've got, let's say some religious group, maybe Muslims who don't see it the same way. And they're both well represented in your community. And now, but now you can't create conflict. You can't be saying things to children that are going to.

cause friction or start, you know, parents sort of picketing schools, which has happened, right? It has happened numerous times, you know, so entire schools have been shut down because of a book that was in the library, you know? So like how, you know, how do you navigate those things? So you have to be very sense, very sensitive, right? It's very tricky. It's not easy.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

Yeah, how do you be culturally safe? Yes.

That's right. So how do you become culturally sensitive, you know, without alienating a particular community? Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Very difficult.

Andy Psarianos

without favoring a particular community even. Right. So, then, so then, you know, that's really tricky because you're also talking about, especially in elementary schools or primary schools, you're talking about very young children, know, you can't, know, the, the idea, the idea that of trying to present that there are multiple worldviews is a very difficult, know, they're

Adam Gifford

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

idea of right and wrong is less sophisticated and maybe not sophisticated enough to understand that different people have different ideas about what's right and wrong, you know? And, yeah, I don't, I don't even know. I don't even know. Like, you know, my advice is stay away, right? Stay away from those topics, right?

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Adam Gifford

But I think, yeah, but I think there's part of it where we've got to realize that if you live in a democracy, we're going to have to take some of those top level things are going to be decisions about a society. How does society want to live? And we see that in politics all the time, right? Where there's swings and there's various different things. So at the moment in New Zealand, there's a big debate going on because Aotearoa, the Maori name.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Adam Gifford

is the first name on the passport above New Zealand. It used to be New Zealand first and Aotearoa and this has become a point of politics. So, you the government at the moment is talking about reversing that order. So I think that when we have something like that, of course, just like you've described, there are going to be different people with different views on this. And I guess in a democracy, it's what, you know, it's what

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Adam Gifford

It's weird as it land when you've got a government who ultimately decides what society looks like. But I think for our part, when we are in schools, I think that like Andy said, I mean, there might be some contentious areas that we don't need to broach or we hope that we've done enough listening and learning.

that we don't use something that we think is like as an organization is the right thing to do, but without knowing the context in someone else's eyes that might be actually know that that's, you we don't want to use that or we don't want to do this for these reasons. But I always just think like the starting place is recognition because I just think there's not, you don't have to go back that far. You've already talked about America, Robin.

When I was growing up, it was different again for my father, his best mate got hit every day for speaking Maori. That was his language. That's what he spoke. And when you come to my generation, the reason why think so many New Zealanders travel to Europe is because that's all we learned about. We've only learned about Europe. So it sort of drew us in because we felt that we were kind of next door neighbors with Europe. What a load of nonsense. We're in the middle of the South Pacific Ocean, for goodness sake.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Adam Gifford

We're not, it's a thing that we're even remotely part of Europe. Exactly, exactly. You're coming back on yourself if you go any further. So I think it's those things that when you, yeah, exactly. So it's those things for me that even at its most simple, and is that good enough? No, probably not. You know, there's absolutely more things that we can do. But I think recognition that actually I'm a value, I'm a value enough to be part of an education system.

Andy Psarianos

about as far as you can get.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Robin Potter

27 hour flight.

Adam Gifford

God, to even think that you have to say that out loud. Yes, it's worth it. Of course we should be doing this. But we're not that far removed from a system that didn't feature. And that's the truth.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. So what age is it appropriate to start getting into like, think, you know, we all kind of know really what children need to learn is, is that your worldview is valid, but so is his or hers. Right. So that's, that's where we need to get everybody to. Right. Like, and yours isn't more valid than theirs. Right.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

It's more valid for you, but not for them. Right. And, and, that's okay. Somehow that's what the message that largely everybody needs to get. It isn't a right or wrong. There's an, an ultimate right or wrong in this, like at what age you start working this into a child's education.

Because you can't do it when they're five or six. They won't get it.

Adam Gifford

they from them.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

But I guess the thing is that I still maintain that from the younger stage, I think just checking in with yourself. We'll have all grown up with prejudices of some way, shape or form. We all would have been molded into something, whoever we are through all of our experiences, we live through life. And I think that

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Mmm.

Adam Gifford

I think it's those sorts of things. think it's being mindful of your behaviors in the classroom. Do I always go to this child? You know, those sorts of things that just checking in on yourself are my behaviors reinforcing what happened when I was at school. Do I always ask Robin, but I always ignore Andy? And actually this week, the only time I've spoken to Andy was to tell him off because he didn't sit down when I asked him to, because he took two pieces of fruit and he did-da-da-da-da.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Mm.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Adam Gifford

And so I think that we just need to be mindful as educators that just to check in, there will be biases within all of us. And we need to be really mindful of that and be, yeah, I think that we need to be very conscious. It's hard, think, you know, really difficult, but that to me is the starting point.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. And I think we need sort of zig very guiding, guiding idea. They're like, whatever it is is happening, right? Whether it's the resources that you're using, it's the way that you're running your, your lessons or whatever it is, or, or the, the entire school community, the entire school environment, the, the first responsibility of, of the, uh, institution.

is to make sure that every child is safe in that institution and feels welcome. And you've got to start there, right? You've got to start there regardless of anything else. That's got to be created. And feeling welcome means to me that they see themselves as a member of the community, a valued member of the community, and that their worldview is recognized within that community.

even if not everybody thinks it's the right one, but it's recognized, right? And I think that that's, that's kind of where you start. And then from there, do the best you can. Right. But for content creators and everything, like we need to, so if you're

Adam Gifford

Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

If you're creating materials for a particular geographic region, you need to make sure that the members of that geographic community are represented in what you're doing, but they're not the only people who are represented in what you're doing. So are many worldviews and, and, and then, but without getting political or without trying to think that that's your, yeah, cause that's not the topic you're trying to teach. You might be trying to teach math, right? But it can be as simple as just incorporating some local cultural.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

practices or references or whatever into your math one way or another right normalizing it

Robin Potter

you know, knowing your students, understanding their cultural identities and languages, because there are different, all kinds of different children in the classroom. And I think validating and affirming, you know, that all cultures are good, you know, that they're valued, I guess.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Andy Psarianos

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Adam Gifford

fascinating. I always think get curious about the cultures like it's such a treat to learn about and I think that's you know and certainly in my experience I'm sure I'm sure it's the same for the two of you is that even in like where I might have been somewhere where it's a vastly different culture to one that I grew up in or that I am today. Those similarities that underpin it all you know.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, absolutely.

Robin Potter

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Adam Gifford

people sitting around and having a good chat over food. I've found that to be universal. I think it's that curiosity of the cultures and really, Sorry, Robin, I've jumped in.

Robin Potter

Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Potter

Yeah, and connecting it. No, no, that's that's perfect. like, but connecting it to real life, right? Like, it's not just, I don't know, knowing that some about someone's background, but actually connecting it. And like you said, through whatever it is through food or certain ceremony. Yeah, whatever it is, you know, those things help. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

ceremony.

whatever, celebration of some sort or some, yeah, cause there's always, there's always those commonalities, right. But also just day to day things, right. Just day to day life. And, and, it can, it can be as simple as, you know, making sure that,

Robin Potter

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Psarianos

very routine things. It don't always have to be like, you know, I don't know, some major, you know, cultural ceremony. Like it'd just be like as simple as like, what's something that this...

this person would routinely do every day that maybe these other people wouldn't do. And that also could be as simple as the difference between someone who lives an urban life, who might travel by public transport versus someone who lives in the country who might have to walk great distances or may have to do something else and making sure all those things are represented, right? Yeah.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

See every student. Teach every culture.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Yeah. Without, without introducing tokenism in the process, I think here's the one kid in the ceremonial uniform of his, you know, whatever it's like. Yeah. There's gotta be a balance here.

Robin Potter

Of course, yeah.

Robin Potter

No. No, there's got to be a balance. But yeah. Okay.

Andy Psarianos

But it's harder than it's ever been though, I will say.

Robin Potter

Okay, that's for our next podcast then. Don't even start. We've come too far at this point. thanks. Until next time.

Andy Psarianos

Okay.

Andy Psarianos

I won't.

Andy Psarianos

Until next time.