Episode 228: Curriculum decisions — Who makes them and how impactful are they?

Ep.228.txt

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another episode of the School of School podcast. It's lovely to see Robin and Andy. How are you both today?

Robin Potter

Very well, thank you.

Andy Psarianos

Good, good, very good, yeah.

Adam Gifford

Excellent, excellent. We were talking about bread, which got things pretty exciting just off air, but we're going to bring it back to what I know has been keeping Andy really busy most recently. me too. But something that we've been doing for a number of years now, but it's about, I don't know how best to phrase it, organization of the curriculum, getting some coherence, basically.

Andy Psarianos

And you.

Adam Gifford

putting a resource together to meet the needs of the children in a country or an area. I think that probably best sums it up. yeah, go for it Andy, go.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, yeah, well, I guess, you know, at the heart, you know, the, the, the issue is, is that, when you're working in different places and you're working with different curriculums and stuff, what's becomes evident very quickly is not everybody agrees, what should be taught when, right? Especially, and, and it really, I think it kind of comes back together by the time you, you're at the end of

know, high school, secondary school, but it starts very differently in many different places, right? And that's kind of, and where the emphasis lies and things like that.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, and even those things, I mean look, all countries will learn to count one, two, three, they don't change the order of that. But even some of those really fundamental things, those decisions that are made when we get asked to do something and to look at a curriculum and to support that with the resources that we produce, is that even within some of those, what I'd consider the really early, if you like, basics of maths,

Adam Gifford

some of those changes. So, you know, like, no, you need to be five to learn this. No, over here you need to be seven. Over here you need to do this. And it's fascinating. And like you're saying, you know, inevitably you end up having these sort of areas, these ideas, these mathematical ideas in place. And over time they build and develop.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, that's right.

Adam Gifford

But you're really fascinated that these decisions are made and you look at some of them and you think, I wonder what's behind this? And do we need to do this? Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. And also there's different entry points into the same thing. Right. So you're, you know, like, you know, that at some point they need, you know, there's all these things that they need to know, but do you start with

You know, this concept or do you start with that concept or do you, do you include this or do you not include it or, know, so let's just pick a simple one. Like, you know, so I'm working on, I'm working on a couple of curriculums right now. for Canadian ones, Alberta and British Columbia. And, in particular Alberta, doesn't, doesn't have, so, you know, I'm looking at grade one right now, you know, which is post kindergarten, post preschool and.

There's nothing about multiplication. Okay? Now you think, well, yeah, grade one, why would you be doing multiplication? But you know, some of the multiplication concepts are pretty fundamental, but we have fractions. And you think, well, okay, well, that's interesting, you know?

So you're doing fractions, but you're not doing multiplication. the foundation of multiplication and the foundation of fractions are so interlinked, right? The fundamental beginning concepts of multiplicative reasoning, you know, they all both basically start with equality and equal.

groups or equal sharing right so so here's the thing you say well that okay well that doesn't seem to be any harm in that but then you say okay well you look at fractions and there are bits of fractions that are easier than others so you say show two halves of a piece of paper right you know and you can fold and whatever that's conceptually a lot more easy than say fractions of a set

Andy Psarianos

Right? So you say you got 12 items. What's half of 12 items? Right? Well, that's kind of division, isn't it? Right? Like it's it's not, you know what I mean? Like it what's the difference between that and dividing, right? So so but if you're not teaching equal groups, which is the first kind of module into division, equal groups and sharing.

Adam Gifford

Totally. Totally. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

but you're doing it with fractions, it's kind of like you're, you're, you're, know, it's, it's your, your, you're getting to the same place, but you're completely different entry points, right?

Adam Gifford

Yeah. And I, sorry.

Robin Potter

So you get to the, sorry, Adam, but so if you're getting to the same place, then the question is, so what difference does it make then where you started?

Andy Psarianos

Well, that's the question, right? Does it make a difference? And I think that, you know, I think that it can make a significant difference if you don't get it right.

Robin Potter

Yeah. Yeah.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

So, you know, our job effectively when we do something like this is to say, okay, that's maybe not the most intuitive way to do it. So how, what do we need to do? So now we can create a chapter that's called Sharing and Grouping.

Right? Which is effectively what would initially be the first chapter on multiplication and division, but we're not calling it multiplication and division. We're calling it sharing and grouping. And it's part of the module that goes before fractions, but it's not, do you understand what I'm saying? So it's like, but it is multiplication and division. We're just not calling it that because they don't call it that in the curriculum, but you need to do it.

Robin Potter

Great.

Adam Gifford

But this is where I think, yeah, totally, and this is where I think it's so important that when you look at the pages in our book or if you're looking at it digitally or however you're looking at it, that becomes crucial. Because if I'm a teacher and I'm in Alberta and I just go, don't do multiplication.

So you might not be looking for those links. You might not be looking for those crossovers. It's until you see it. And I think that's what separates out like a good resource from something that's not so good, is that when you see that making those links becomes a lot easier. Because on the surface of it, we can think that we can just go, right, well, I'm the grade one teacher. I don't have to consider multiplication at all.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

So why would I start to make the links? Because I think that like a teacher that's perhaps skilled in the craft will see that. They'll see the lesson. They'll see the links and perhaps even talk to it in a way that makes that key idea fit into either or without necessarily making it fit into one exclusively. Does that make sense?

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adam Gifford

But that's where I think it can come unstuck, is that if you just think, right, we're not looking at this, why would you then think that there's a crossover between these ideas? You know, it would be easy to think, well, perhaps there's not, but there is, and you just explained it, so.

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, well, so the thing, yeah, so it's like, it's...

And there's no, there's no, you know, because, because people tend to think in very general terms when they think about mathematics. It's only when you get into like the real, you start dissecting the details that you start to see a lot of these things. And I guess that's kind of what we're hoping to teach all the children. It's not, we're not trying to overcomplicate it. Like there's a difference, right? You can overcomplicate things and that's not what we're trying to do. But what we're trying to do is, kind of like, okay, well, how do you, how, because

Adam Gifford

Mmm.

Andy Psarianos

Because in the end, what you really want is you want a child that comes out of school who understands even not necessarily consciously, right? Like they're not sitting around thinking about this or writing about it, but they understand the subtleties. They understand that like, you know, fractions and division and multiplication and ratio and percentages and, you know, all kinds of other stuff are so close

even though conceptually they're different, they're basically the same thing at the heart, right? In that, you know, that they're so intertwined that you can't really separate them and that...

you know, that those links are really more important than remembering all your facts, for example, right? But to be able to say like, I'm dealing with ratio and, or I'm dealing with percentages, or I'm dealing with, you know, hey, you know, like the things that I learned in fractions or the things that I learned in division, they all kind of apply here because they're all kind of fundamentally the same core. They're just different manifestations, right? And that's important.

Robin Potter

So I'm really curious because as you've noticed, this can be different province to province, say within Canada, then country to country and that's, yeah, but yes, but then if it's country to country, who's making these decisions? you could have an argument with someone over

Andy Psarianos

country to country, wherever, right? Classroom to classroom.

Robin Potter

the order of how to introduce things. But how does an entire country decide on this is it? This is our curriculum and this is the order we're teaching it.

Andy Psarianos

Well, yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question. you know, like, like I think in in the best case scenario, it's it's really experienced people who understand what's at stake and what needs to be done and understand that there's there's complexity in it.

and that they're going to deal with those things carefully and consider within a considered fashion. And in the worst case scenario, it's some flippant politician who just has an agenda of his own to, to grind and, decides that he's gonna, you know, come up with some very basic generalization of what needs to be taught. Like we need to go back to basics. Like the amount of times that that term has been used, like, what does that even mean? Like, what point did we not ever teach the basics? Right. Like.

You know what I'm saying?

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Adam Gifford

yeah all of a sudden these newfangled basics get them out the way well let's do something that's totally avant-garde

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right. We're going to teach it backwards. We're going to start with calculus or whatever, right?

Adam Gifford

But it's really interesting. I think it's a really good point, Robin, because I was reading a book. I've just traveled down to London. On the way I was reading the maths book about early maths for young children, four to seven year olds. And this book was written some time ago and it was making reference to the 1999 curriculum here in New Zealand. I was thinking of the New Zealand curriculum here in the UK.

But what's really interesting is that everyone that would have been involved in it, there was some stuff there that was really well considered, there was a huge amount of resourcing and those sorts of things. But like all curriculums, and this will be true of Alberta, New Zealand, the UK.

Of course, we can't we can't sort of legislate for the random politician that decides I'm going to get back to my youth and this is the times tables is what made me the champion that I am that aside. It's really interesting because you can see that there are sort of shifts probably in a group of people's thinking. So the core elements still stay there, but there's this that's saying, hey, listen, we've got to attend to this or this is what's on the horizon. So we need to lean into this a bit more.

Robin Potter

Right.

Robin Potter

Hmm.

Adam Gifford

And it was really fascinating because I came over to the UK just in 2000, so it was around that same time as the National Numerical Strategy. And I've seen the change into the curriculum in the UK that's the current curriculum. And it's just really interesting because these elements are both that are really excellent. And looking at that 99 one, there was some huge amount of stuff that went on there.

I think it's the thing, think that there'll be groups of people and then curriculum reform, it like I said, Alberta, New Zealand or here in England. I guess moving forward, there'll be another group of people that will suggest certain things. But I think that what you look at when you look across areas and countries is that at the heart of it, there are these really important elements that we build on and we make sure that they're right.

And like Andy said, because of interlinked nature of mathematics, it's really important that we can see those so the same models and images get used throughout. And so the children have a chance to really embed their knowledge. And I think that the majority of time that those elements are there, it's just sometimes you get them, you know, there's a few things that are sort of like, throw this in really early. No, keep this till it's late.

Andy Psarianos

Mm. Mm.

Adam Gifford

Don't tell them about five minutes and reading the clock until a bit later. No introducing earlier. And it's these sort of things around, not around the edge, that's doing a disservice to some of it, but it is a really fascinating practice. It's really fascinating.

Andy Psarianos

Mm.

Yeah. And then you get, know, and then the thing is, and obviously the other thing that you need to consider is, that like, okay, so, you know, we do this nonstop, like constantly, like this is kind of, this is what we do. Right. but for a lot of people who get involved in writing curriculums for government,

This is not what they do, right? They do something else. So maybe they're an academic and they work in a research capacity, or maybe they're a school teacher, or maybe they're a mathematician, let's say, right?

But all those things are very specialized things, right? Like teaching and writing a curriculum are not the same thing, right? You know, academics are usually hyper-focused on a couple of things. They're not...

very broad and you know maybe that's wrong I don't know but do understand what I'm saying like there will be academics who who focus on making curriculums but they're often not the people who are making the curriculums right and and so so you know so what what how do you choose the people who are going to work on this thing right and and that's it you know it's a challenge right

Robin Potter

Yeah, and how often does it happen where, I mean, I know they review what they've decided on as a curriculum and there are changes to the curriculum. But yeah, what if they didn't get it right? What if it's completely out of order? You have an entire, not generation, but maybe that from...

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, I... Yeah.

Robin Potter

early years to six who went through and didn't quite get it because, oops, we messed up the order.

Andy Psarianos

I haven't run into a curriculum that's so like, you know, off the mark yet, right? Like I think for the most part, the curriculums are, okay, you see some local anomalies. There's two trends, right? There's two trends in curriculums. There's the, we're gonna define everything trend. And there's the other trend, which is we're gonna make it very general and you gotta fill in the blanks, right? So.

Robin Potter

Okay.

Andy Psarianos

You know, so to give you an example, one curriculum may say kids need to be able to, I'm just going to overgeneralize the idea. know, kids need to be able to count, add and subtract to a hundred. Okay. And that's one statement, right? And in another curriculum, you're going to get like 40 statements.

You know, they need to add by ones. They need to be able to do this. They need to be able to tell the place value, you know, like where the digits are in it, you know, and they'd be able to do this and that and whatever. And it's very granular, right? And I'm not sure which one's better. I think it really depends on like, okay, who, are you going to interpret this thing? But the challenge is always the same, right? And this is, know, in essence, the problem is like, if you, when you look at a country that's performing really well or a country that's not performing really well,

You won't be able to tell why by looking at their curriculum. Right? Like it's not the secret doesn't lie in the curriculum, right? The secret lies in what happens after the curriculum, right? Like, and ultimately the secret happens with what happens in the classroom. And,

Adam Gifford

Yeah, 100 % Andy. That's so true. like New Zealand has gone from that so broad that actually you could have an objective that covers a number of years. So it's not even just a broad objective. It says, do it over a couple of years. You know, the skill set that's involved to manage that really well to make sure that you that's huge. that's massive. They've moved to a far more like here's in this year, you're doing this, this and this. So a more prescriptive model.

Andy Psarianos

Hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

interesting.

is that I was in New Zealand at the introduction of the old curriculum and like most things at that point there was a huge amount of support a huge amount of support but as the years went on and you take that support away and what you're asking people to do which on the surface of it just goes well all you need to do is over a couple of years just get them counting and get them adding and get them subtracting how how you're back to basics how hard can it be just get them doing

Andy Psarianos

Back to basics.

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Back to basics.

Adam Gifford

that and you're just thinking the complexity of counting to 10 alone is enormous. You know, yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

You know, and then, and it gets even worse when you get into measures, right? Measures is like, you know, and it's the part of the curriculum that nobody ever really wants to talk about anyway, right? You know, like everyone wants to talk about like the big hardcore mathematical things, but you you think about like, okay, well, there's a lot of weird anomalies in measuring stuff, right? Like, and by that, what I mean is like, okay, just imagine like reading a scale.

Okay, so you've got digital scales. Well, okay, that's not too bad, right? Most people can read a digital scale with no issue, right? But what about when you get into those old analog scales, you know, where you got the, you know, the finger that goes, you know, the dial that goes across the site.

Robin Potter

you

Andy Psarianos

big kind of like circular thing and it's got lots of tick marks on it. And none of that is standardized, right? So sometimes you'll have like, you know, zero and let's say one kilogram and you'll have five separations. You might have 10, you might have 50, you know, there's big ticks and little ticks and you know, okay, like that's kind of like a skill, right? And

Robin Potter

You

Andy Psarianos

So you could just make, you say, well, children need to understand, they need to be able to compare two different masses, right? Or two different weights, however you want to, whatever you want to call it, right? Let's not get into the difference between mass and weight. So, so now, okay, well, what does that mean? That how do you compare two different masses, right? Well, there's only one way to compare two different masses and that's to weigh them, right?

So in order to weigh something, you need to be able to read a scale. But if you're only doing like, like, you know, a turkey weighs da da da da da and a ham weighs blah, blah, you know, compare them. Well, okay. Well, that's, that's one thing, but if you're dealing with scales, that's another thing. Now, does the curriculum get into that?

Does it say you have to be able to read an analog scale or some curriculums do some curriculums are really specific, you know, others just say you need to be able to compare two different masses and that's it. So what does the teacher going to do with that? Are they going to, are they going to get scales out? Does it matter?

Adam Gifford

go digital if you had a choice. And that question, that last one that you said, that doesn't matter. And yeah, it does, because children learning one way and not another. And those differences can be enormous. I always think, yeah.

Andy Psarianos

No, you're not gonna do it.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Well sure. But then you think about okay well what happens now where you know somebody works in an industrial environment let's say it's like a nuclear power plant.

Robin Potter

Mm-hmm.

Andy Psarianos

Right? And there's lots of pipes and there's lots of gauges and there's lots of dials with like pressure valves and things. you got to, you know, we're not sure if the digital systems and controls are giving us right measurements. need to go into the boiler room and see what the valves say. You know, if you don't know how to read a dial on a valve. Yeah. That's kind of like an important skill, isn't it? Like

Adam Gifford

Yes.

Adam Gifford

driving like driving along in the speedo and you're you know like am I yeah

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. How fast am I going? I no idea. Sorry. Sorry, officer. You know, they never taught me how to read this analog dial in this classic car. Right. So

Robin Potter

yeah?

Yeah, how fast? Yeah. Hmm.

Adam Gifford

No. But I think there's other things that crop up as well, like times of beauty, like you're teaching the children to count to 100 and all is good, know, life's good. You get a few 10 hundreds together and now you've got a thousand, everything's uniform, it's making sense. Then someone throws in, now you're just counting to 60. Okay, so 60 seconds, yeah, that'll do, and that's one minute. great news. And then I get to the minutes, right, 60 minutes, yeah, and that's one hour. super. So when I get to 60 hours, what's that?

Well, it's a little over two days. It's not quite, you're going, hold on a second, hold on, hold on, hold on. So now I'm counting in 24s. So even that on its own is something that is a shift for children once again. And they have to remember, I know we talk about conversions, but it's those sorts of things where you start to get those patterns together. There's these sort of subtleties built in.

that again how you manage that, what that looks like. Oh it's when there's a sweep of the hand all the way around the clock. Well it's going to be different on digital. Now we're counting in 60 but it doesn't apply to all the digits. This guy over here is only going to go to 12. Well it depends. Might go to 24. You never know. It's like hold on, hold on.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When it goes all the way around this way with this one, it's 60, but this one, when it goes all the way around is 12. And, yeah. And, and, and, let, let's not look at days of the week because that's a, that's a prime number. And then

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Robin Potter

It's a whole other thing.

Andy Psarianos

And there's like, you know, calendars is a whole other thing, right? And, and yeah, and, let's talk about leap years. And it's just kind of like, it's a bunch of, yeah, there's no, you know, so yeah, it's a bit of a, yeah, so you could need to learn all this stuff, right? And, and it needs to be.

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Yeah. But you...

Adam Gifford

Mmm.

Robin Potter

But that's the point. You brought it up that, again, we're talking about just creating curriculum. We haven't even got into once the curriculum sets, right? And all of these different ways you could be teaching and what needs to be learned, sure. Then, well, that's a whole other episode, really.

Andy Psarianos

describing what needs to be learned.

Adam Gifford

And it goes back to Andy's point, know we're gonna have to wrap up soon, but it goes back to that point that if you just got given an objective and it said, teach the children to read a clock, a calendar, a scale, over to you.

Robin Potter

Yeah. Good luck.

Adam Gifford

These things are these sort of beautifully wrapped gifts that you pass over and you open it up and all of a sudden you look inside and it's one of the most complex mechanisms sort of working away. And we need to be really careful because we need to get these things right and all of these things need to be considered because otherwise, you know, how you going to, how do you follow on? How do you support children to learn these things?