Episode 101: Collaborative Learning

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School podcast.

Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Robin Potter

Are you a maths teacher looking for CPD to strengthen your skills? Maths — No Problem! has a variety of courses to suit your needs. From textbook implementation to the essentials of Teaching Maths mastery. Visit mathsnoproblem.com today to learn more.

Andy Psarianos

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The School of School. Really lucky today, not because Robin and Adam are here, because they're always here, although we're lucky to have them here all the time, but we're extra lucky today because Emma Potter is joining us. Emma's a longtime fan of the podcast and of all the work that we do. So we're so happy to have her here. Emma, say hi. Tell everybody where you're from and what you do.

Emma Potter

So my name is Emma Potter and I come from Sutton in England and I work at a school called Cheam Park Farm, which is part of the LEO Academy Trust. So at Cheam Park Farm, I'm the vice principal and I teach in year six. And then I also am a maths director for LEO Academy Trust as well.

Andy Psarianos

Fantastic. And today we're here to talk about collaborative learning. So go on Emma, tell us what, what's collaborative learning and what does it look like in your school?

Emma Potter

So I would say that collaborative learning can actually happen at any level of the school. So I feel as leaders you have to have collaborative learning. As teachers have to have collaborative learning. And also with the children, that collaborative learning. And it's just about working together and actually talking things through to actually get to your end shared goal together.

Andy Psarianos

So what does collaborative learning look like for teachers?

Emma Potter

At LEO, we develop what's called a learning community. So what we want to do is actually work together to one, support teachers, but also to reduce teacher workload. But one of the crucial things about collaborative working is that you actually are able to have high level of expectation that's not just at one school, but can be spread across several schools. So then you know that you are getting excellence. We have seven schools currently in our trust, soon to be eight. So actually we are having eight schools that actually all work with high expectations. So for our teachers, they work collaboratively together. So they would plan together in year group teams, not as a whole trust, but we have hubs within that trust that work together. And also we have teams within schools that work together as well. So it's about reducing workload as well for teachers to encourage them at whatever level that they're at that they are still learners. And actually they can learn from each other.

So somebody who's in the early career framework can actually teach some of the more experienced teachers things just as early career framework teachers can learn from the most experienced teachers as well. So for me, collaborative working just makes sense because you work together and you don't have to do it all on your own. And for me, that's a lot easier in life, not working on your own all the time. You don't get that lone person feeling like I'm the only person that's doing this, actually, you are working together. You can share the highs and you can share the lows together. And a lot of conversations happen in schools. A lot of talking.

Adam Gifford

Can I ask you, just picking up on that last point. Obviously the last two years of thrown a bit of a spanner in some collaborative working, to put it bluntly, how have you as a school and a trust and a group of colleagues managed that? And my starting place and you might correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that pre-pandemic, there was already an ethos of collaborative learning within the trust. So I guess two questions, what's changed or what changed over that time? And the second thing is what's going to stay as a result of changes that took place.

Emma Potter

Yeah. So even before the pandemic, we were still working together, but it was more on a what worked for you. So I'll give you an example. We have two schools in a hub and sometimes we worked together and sometimes we didn't. It was just what worked for us. So sometimes it might be, oh, we're going to do a big topic on something, let's both do the same. But then during the pandemic, we actually came together in some of our schools so that we only had to open one site, for example, but you'd have two schools attending it for the key workers. And so it meant that teachers were then in the same building together, obviously socially distanced and all that jazz, but actually they had the chance to work together in the classroom. And then as time went on and actually we went back to our own schools, we then had to then do a lot more online.

But we found that because working together we had the shared goal, we all wanted what was best for the children and actually working together meant that we could get the best for more children. So then rather than being four classes, like at Cheam Park Farm, it was six classes to include Brookfield as well. And then we took on another school, so they became part of it as well. So you're just growing this community. So during the pandemic we did a lot obviously online and lots of things were remote. We planned together, we even taught during the school closures where the majority of our children were at home, the teachers from each of the different schools would join a Google meet just like this. And then they would share the teaching load basically in some of the hubs within the trust. And then once that was finished, we had a whole bank of videos that we could then go back and use, that had high quality teaching that could be shared.

And then also we've continued planning together as well. And so we get together weekly. A lot of the time it is still remotely just because of everyone's timetables and people like me are silly busy. But actually you can then fit it in around, it doesn't matter whether you're travelling somewhere or you're getting something else, you can fit in that half an hour, 40 minutes to talk something through with the other school. But also then we have started now to get together and actually plan again together in person in the same room, which I think we all prefer, but we can see the benefit of using online. So I suppose that's the things that we've continue doing is actually we are still working together.

And we've built quite a strong relationship between the schools and just, for example, this morning I was doing a learning walk at the other hub school, so our leadership team went across there and their leadership team will come to us next week. So actually you've got that shared understanding and you've got that shared moderation of things that are just going to help you when you come to the meetings of what we are going to do to develop our school. Actually we've seen each other's schools, we've been in to observe and actually we have that better understanding of where everyone's going. So I think that's where teachers collaborate together.

Robin Potter

That's fantastic. That's a real plus from the last two years that you're actually not only collaborating with your own team, but you're collaborating with other schools as well. And I would imagine there's a lot of extra learning going on then, shared teaching tips and tricks.

Emma Potter

And if someone's got an expertise that they can share, you can either get all together or you can record things if they're not in the same building as you. So there's quite a lot of flexibility in that. So you are actually giving children a better offer because you are able to use the expertise across your whole team. And everyone brings something different to the team. So I suppose it's just as leaders channelling that knowledge, that expertise so that the children get a better offer as a result.

Andy Psarianos

And Emma, do you find that teachers always welcome this openly or is there sometimes a bit of a struggle to get people on board with working collaboratively?

Emma Potter

I think you're always going to have that relationship you've got to build first. If teachers didn't see the benefit of it, perhaps it wasn't working as effectively as it could, then yes, you would get some teachers that perhaps said, well, it was easier the way that we used to do it. But I think it's what really important is leaders showing that actually this is the way we can benefit from this. And if it's not working, let's fix it so that it does. Let's talk about it. Let's try and be open with each other to actually say, these are the things that aren't going well, so let's change this or let's make it better. So for example, always working online didn't always work.

So that's why we introduced going back to meet together, actually in person, because that's the way that people preferred. So that's the way we've tried to do more of. But what's just really important, I think, is having that ethos within the school that you can say when something isn't working, and actually sometimes it can be a bit daunting to actually say, well, we didn't like the way that you planned this or this didn't work for us, but actually it didn't work for us and this is how we're going to improve it, kind of thing.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. It's tricky. A lot of it is about setting the right kind of culture for your teams and making sure that people feel like being part of the team is about being affiliated, and that we're working together towards a common goal. And that the collective is more important than the individual. And it's not about their particular dominion over their classroom. That's not the point of doing this. It's really about everybody gaining from everybody else's experience. What about the children? I expect in a modern classroom in most places in the world, there's certainly a few that are exceptions. Children work together a lot and they collaborate a lot. But I think for a lot, maybe some of the parents that listen. Or certainly it wasn't the norm in some of the schools that I went to, collaboration. We pretty much expected to work alone. What does that look like in the classroom? What does it look like for the students?

Emma Potter

So there's a lot of conversation. There's a lot of talking, using learning partners to actually, first of all just talk about it. You're never on your own in the classroom. At the start of something, you have to scaffold that conversation for learners. You have to teach children how to work together. They can't necessarily do that without that scaffold from the teacher.

Andy Psarianos

What are some of the challenges there, when you say that the children need to learn to work together? Maybe can you spell that out a little bit? What are some of the challenges? What does it look like if they don't know how to work together?

Emma Potter

You've got one person that does all the work and the other one either sits back and does nothing or gets upset that they can't do anything. Sometimes, because we really promote the mixed ability working and pairing. And sometimes you might have a child that sees themselves as brighter than the other child. And so what can I possibly learn from this other child? And I think that's where you have to teach children actually about everybody's got something to bring. Everyone's got something to give. And I suppose we model that as an adults that when we talk as leaders and as teachers, it's actually everyone's going to bring something to this and I'm going to speak to other adults in the classroom and they're going to help me to do this. Just supports children to see actually everyone can bring something, but when it doesn't work very well, you do sometimes get quite frustrated children. And then I'm picking, what is it that we are doing? What's the end goal? We want to get there together and how are we going to do that? I think we have to model that a lot as adults.

Adam Gifford

I used to find that really difficult and I struggled with that with-

Andy Psarianos

You say that Adam, but you're so good at it. And that's why it's surprised for you to say that.

Adam Gifford

No, no, no. No. No. Totally. Because it was like, or I struggled helping those children. I just thought it was really difficult. I think the idea behind it, we know the benefits that the task that we can give them is we can set up some really good tasks that lend themselves really nicely to success. I know we've talked about a number of times tasks that have got low floor, high ceilings so they're accessible. We set up the materials that lend themselves toward it and all those things. But I think it's a cultural thing and I think that that takes time, that it's safe for them to get it wrong. The whole binary aspect of success being either right or wrong. I think that's quite a dangerous proposition.

If the success criteria in classroom, if that's what it is, that makes it pretty daunting. Because it's either going to go one way or the other. But if it's like, yeah, we want people to get it right, but actually what I'm really curious about is how we can get there and what are the speed bumps along the way. And I'm really curious to know what happens when we get it wrong? What does getting it wrong look like? How would we get it? Those sorts of things. But I just found as a teacher, I think it's easy to underestimate just how difficult it is to get the children to believe that to be true. And I think that that is such an important thing culturally in this school, that that's something that is really ingrained in it. And I just think that that's a tricky one. It is hard. I found it hard anyway.

Andy Psarianos

So what does that modelling look like then, in a practical term? What is that modelling of that-

Adam Gifford

Well, I think it's twofold, Andy. So I was thinking about Emma's point, and do jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, Emma, because I'm just about to phrase it in a way that could be, it's not meant to be, but at the very beginning when you talked about meeting up, it seemed a bit more ad hoc needs based. So when we need need to work together, we get together and we work. When we might not deem it necessary, we don't. And it sounds like there's a bit of a shift now to say, actually collaborative working underpins the success of the school. And sometimes people might take a little bit longer coming to the party and some people are evangelists and some people are in the middle.

But I think that if you don't have a culture in the school that actually believes in that and there's a safe space for teachers to get it wrong, and they're okay and feel comfortable with themselves getting it wrong, and also the children getting it wrong. So it's not just that success criteria of correct dances and the number of correct dances equal success or failure. I think it has to be believable because we all know kids can sniff out when you are not genuine at a thousand paces. They know if what you are looking for is the right answer or whatever. So I think it comes throughout the whole school. I think it has to be believed that it's safe.

Emma Potter

I think it's-

Andy Psarianos

Sorry Emma, I was just going to ask Adam a question and I'll ask you the same question. So have you ever made a mistake in front of the kids and how did you feel?

Adam Gifford

I've made an uncountable number of mistakes in front of the children. Yeah, for sure.

Andy Psarianos

And how did you feel?

Adam Gifford

Well, I think that one of the terrible things that happened in my education, which led me to be a better teacher, is I had a teacher that couldn't admit when she didn't know something. And she also didn't put in the effort to say, "I will find out for you because you're curious." And that had a major impact on what I ended up doing in my life. So I can take that feeling that's still pretty raw, I'm still cross, but I love what I do now. I absolutely love what I do now. But it's the impact of something like that. And so I think when I went into the classroom, I think that what I did do is I valued that curiosity. And I also was quite happy saying, I don't know how to do that, but I'd love to find out. And if someone else in the class can tell me, that's even better still. Then I don't have to go and find out. That'll be amazing. So I think I already had that, but just because I was scarred young from a teacher that probably wasn't quite as insightful.

Robin Potter

What about you, Emma?

Emma Potter

Yeah, so I sometimes there are planned in mistakes to, and I always used to say, "Oh, I meant to do that. I was making sure that you could spot that." And then I think as I became more confident as a teacher and the further into my career that I've gone, I think sometimes just admitting that you are not perfect, really important for children to know. Because I know that as a child I was very much a perfectionist. And especially in maths, I was always in the top set. And setting is something that I always arguing about because I was always in the top set, all the way through primary school. I was on the hexagon table and I was a genius, because my teacher told me I was a genius and that I was really clever in maths.

And I went off to secondary school and I was not a genius in maths. And I actually took a massive knock in confidence that I actually just withdrew. And perhaps if I had had that earlier on in my primary career, that actually my teacher didn't always get it right, that meant that I didn't always have to get it right, that actually I could then be more successful as I grew up. I went on to do okay in my GSEs. But probably, if I had compared my progress from primary to GSE, I would have been deemed a failure.

But actually I think now as a teacher, I remember that, that actually you have to see people make mistakes. You have to see people actually not always be able to hold all that information as well. Because we are teachers. We're not absolute gods. Although some people may think that they are, but actually you have to model that learning process. You have to model looking something up. And I think that's something that I have started more now, but maybe back when I was an NQT many years ago now, I would've been the teacher that would've scarred you, Adam, because I would've said, "Oh no, I know everything. That's it. I know the answer and I'm the only one that can." And I think it only comes with confidence that you can actually admit, that actually you are-

Robin Potter

And that's probably the key. Sorry, Emma. But what you're saying is a confident teacher who's willing to say I make mistakes is much more valuable in the classroom to the students than a teacher acting as if they're perfect. Because in the long run-

Emma Potter

And I think that the children respect that as well, they can see actually you've apologised, if it's a big mistake you need to apologise for. Or actually you can then show them how you are going to learn from it. And I think that's really important. The children see you as actual genuine people, not just these people that live in the cupboards like I did when I was at primary school. I thought the teacher just got out the cupboard. And if you saw them outside of school, wow, that was something special. But I think they've got to see you as a real person. Although you're not always going to be making mistakes because what are you then teaching?

Robin Potter

That would be problematic too.

Emma Potter

Yeah, it would be. Yeah, you've got to have that fine balance between the two.

Andy Psarianos

So you're effectively modelling vulnerability and empathy and all those things. And that's a big part of what you have to do in a classroom is to model that kind of thing. It's something that I think a lot of teachers maybe aren't confident enough to show that side of themselves, especially newly qualified teachers. And maybe that's something that as part of their early teacher training we should watch out for. We should make sure that as we bring them into the community, that they're good models of those kinds of behaviours and the children. Because like you say, some children who are overly confident will dominate any collaborative work or maybe it's the opposite problem, maybe at home they're being told like, "Hey, you know what? You don't have a voice. No, nobody cares what you have to say."

I mean it's unfortunate, but it does happen. Some kids come and they have zero confidence. And even if they can, they're just not going to put their hand up. They're not going to work with somebody who's way more confident than them. They're not going to come in and say what they think, they're just going to shrink. And that doesn't lead anywhere good. So I think that maybe we don't talk enough about those things when we talk about things like mathematics, because it's so prevalent in mathematics. Because it's so easy to rank yourself, your own belief system, whatever your belief system. So easy to rank yourself as to whether or not you think you're a good mathematician or not. A good measure of that is how many adults, like you mentioned it earlier, how many adults come to you and say, "Yeah, I suck at maths, or I was really bad at maths." If I could just take a five P coin for every person that told me that I would've retired a long time ago.

Robin Potter

So confidence. That sounds like a key here and building confidence in new teachers is-

Andy Psarianos

Confidence in messing up. And being a human being and not being a superhero.

Adam Gifford

I think one thing, just the final last bit from me in this, is that I also think that people should never forget the length of time it's taken them and how hard some things have been and how much effort you put in to learn. And so if I'm talking to someone who maybe is brand new to teaching, I think I should also finish with, "And by the way, that was really hard work and it wasn't until I taught for about four years that I got it. Okay. So what I'm telling you now, you might get it way quicker than me. You might be real onto it. I might have just taken a fair while to get there." But I think it's remembering those things and reminding people that just because you've been told this today doesn't make you an expert tomorrow.

There's a lot of work that goes into all of these different things. Same for the children too. And that these things can take time. So if you don't get it, don't freak out. That's learning and that's normal. But I don't think we end stuff with that enough. We present stuff sometimes, make it look real easy and say, "There you go, there's something for Monday morning." And it's just like, oh wow, that's magic. Awesome. And it's not. It's not. It requires practise and it requires all sorts of things. And so yeah, I just think remember that whenever we're explaining or working with other people.

Andy Psarianos

Good point, Adam, thanks for joining us, Emma. It's always so much fun.

Emma Potter

Thanks for having me.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on the School of School podcast.