Episode 159: Executive Head’s advice - Managing the shift in Maths programme

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School podcast.

Andy Psarianos

Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another episode of The School of School podcast. The two regulars are with us Robin and Andy. What a pleasure seeing you guys in 2024. How are you both? Good?

Andy Psarianos

I'm really good. How are you, Adam?

Adam Gifford

I'm really good too. Robin, you good?

Robin Potter

I am. Feeling good.

Adam Gifford

Excellent. We're joined by Eliza Hollis, Executive Head Teacher of Forest Federation of Schools. Eliza, what a pleasure seeing you here. How are you?

Eliza Hollis

Yeah, really good. Thank you. Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Listen, I've got a question for you. Way back, sort of 2011-ish, you made a decision for your school, your community, your children, to adopt an approach to teaching mathematics that at the time could be considered really brave. You might not see it as brave, but I'd suggest that there might be an element to that. And I just want to hear some more about it, about the shift where you went from and to, and the elements that allowed you to make that shift with confidence and take the people who were I guess the most vocal shareholders in our school, the parents, our governors, the wider school community. If you could just sort of take us through that. Does that make sense?

Eliza Hollis

It does. Yeah. I mean, obviously when we first looked at Maths No Problem, it was really important to get that buy-in from a couple of members of staff. Because when you've got those champions, they're able to then really lead that. And they were showcasing and having a go and dipping their toe into it and saying to other members of staff, "Come and have a look. Just come and see what we're doing." So we did it very gently to start with, but it gathered momentum quite quickly because I think staff needed a structure. They needed something to help them with the delivery of maths, particularly with the mixed-age classes. We then decided to actually, let's get parents involved. So we had parents' evenings in the schools, and we held a maths meeting so we could talk to them about how we teach maths. And we started with, we gave them a calculation on the board and we asked everybody to do that calculation.

And then we asked them to explain how they did it, and it was quite obvious that everybody did it in a different way. And then we started talking about this is what it's like in a classroom. This is what we want our children to articulate. And then we showed them the apparatus and the resources, and even where we use the egg boxes and how we were doing the tens frames, and they could see how concrete Maths No Problem was and how we were delivering maths, and how it might be very different to how they had done it at school. So it's all about changing hearts and minds, but you have to bring them on the journey. There's no point in me thinking, "This is great, we're going to do this." But also it's about credibility. And I think it's that credibility going forward that actually, "This works. I'm going to go out my comfort zone, I'm going to have a go with this. What's the worst that could happen?"

And I think my staff, we have that trust with each other. I'm very much a leader that it's okay to have a go. I want my staff to do that. It's not a one-size-fits-all. My staff are very individual teachers. So they could see teachers who were really confident with maths, loving it, and then the less experience with maths and less confidence, they started having a go. And then when they became vocal, it gathered the wheel, it gathered a momentum. And the same with parents. Parents were coming in for open mornings and we were putting maths problems out. And whereas before parents were saying, "I'm no good at maths, maths was not my forte." We don't hear that anymore, because parents are now on board and talking about the love of maths or the love of number.

So I think that's kind of the journey with getting communities and getting everybody on board. But it's really hard to pinpoint what that one thing was. For me, we had a video. I saw a video of Yeap Ban Har doing something with fractions, and he was showing it, and that was the first hook, I think. I saw it and I showed my staff it in the staff meeting and I said, "Have you ever thought about teaching fractions like this?" And they were like, "Why aren't we doing that?" And that was the first hook.

So when we went to the training, we were then given lots of apparatus and then the trainer was talking about delivery. And when the teachers could actually physically touch it, see it, do it, they began to understand the importance of children having that CPA approach. So we were going back to school, we were rummaging through the cupboards. We were getting all the old deens out and blowing the dust off them.

Adam Gifford

I love it.

Eliza Hollis

People were finding Abacus, people were finding 10 things going, "Oh, we can use this for that." And I'm like, "Yes, yes, because it's all been squirrelled away." So it was like a light bulb moment, I think is the word.

Andy Psarianos

It's so great hearing you talk Eliza because it brings me right back to those early days of 2011. You dropped the bomb for me. You said egg boxes. And I don't know if Adam and Robin will have no idea what you mean by egg boxes, but when I was doing that training back in 2011, I knew that one of the key things because it was difficult. I had to make a lot of choices about how am I going to get these big messages across? And I said ten frames, but you couldn't even buy ten frames in a day. Nobody even used ten frames. I mean, I think people knew of it because maybe they heard about it when they studied, but it wasn't happening in the classroom. So ten frames were like, nobody even knew what you were talking about if you said ten frames.

I said, "I got to find a way to get a bunch of ten frames to get them out in the community in a way this is not going to cost a fortune." And I don't remember how I worked this out, maybe somebody gave me the idea or I saw it somewhere or whatever. But it dawned on me that the egg boxes that you find in the farmer's market, we're not talking about the twelves that you buy in the supermarket. They're flats and they hold 60 eggs, right? Sorry, 30 eggs, six by five. And if you cut them and they're really easy to cut, you can make three ten frames out of them. Right? And they're just cardboard cheap things that are given away. So I went on a mad hunt to find bulk numbers of these things, and I found someone who had them, and I convinced somebody who had a band saw to cut them all for me.

You wouldn't imagine the amount of dust that that created. But in the back of the warehouse, I had literally thousands of these things. And I would go to training courses and I would demonstrate ten frames using these things, and then I would let people take them away. And then all of a sudden it became a thing, and people weren't even referring to them as ten frames. They were referring to them as egg boxes back then. Right?Which is funny because you don't want to use a standard egg box because it's 12, and it needs to be 10, right? So yeah. Oh, I know how it came around, the idea. In Singapore, they use egg boxes because in Singapore, there's an interesting story to explore one day, they sell eggs in tens as opposed to in dozens. Why is that? I have no idea. I don't know if that's a whole Asia thing or whatever.

So that's how the idea came around. Anyway, fantastic to hear all that. But from a leadership point of view, Eliza, because obviously you knew and you got some key people involved right from the beginning, but it takes a lot to change how people do things. It really does. And especially in a situation that's as complex as yours where you're dealing with so many children in a classroom that are doing different things, how do you convince people? Because they will cling on to whatever routines they have as a coping thing. How do you encourage them to change what they do?

Eliza Hollis

But it's a culture. It's a culture thing, Andy. I think it's about developing that culture. I'm very much a leader where I want my staff to take risks. I want them to step out the bones, the comfort zones. And I think when staff, obviously this was at the beginning, I just got to know some of my new staff, but I think as the journey progressed, they realised that actually I wasn't going to go in and say, "Why are you doing that? What you do?" They were allowed to have a go. They were allowed to be the teachers that they want to be. And I said, "Have a go with it, there's no expectation, just have a go and let's feedback." And we did that in staff metres. And over time, the more and more people had a go and came back and were positive, the more people thought, "Okay, it's okay to take a risk."

And I think it's really important. It's about your culture and your ethos in your school. And you can't teach somebody that, that is what happens in a school, and it takes time to develop it. I can tell you now with the school that I've just taken on, we're a year down the line, they're just there now. They're realising it's okay to deviate from because actually nobody's going to come in and go, "Oh, it's this time you should be doing this." And it's a whole different mindset I think. But it's something I'm passionate about. And that's why when people come to work for me, I'm very clear about that from the beginning. And that's what attracts staff to my schools and they never leave, which is great. We develop them.

Andy Psarianos

But Eliza, in your scenario, I mean some of the things that you've described, so you've got five very small village schools in a trust that you're in charge of. And as if that isn't challenging enough, it seems like you're very heavily scrutinised by Ofsted, obviously the church schools as well. So you've got that to contend with as well. So a lot of people would be tempted to do what it takes to try to march to the beat of that drum, the inspectors and being very concerned about, got another inspection coming, got to prepare for that. How do you put that to the back of your mind and say?

Eliza Hollis

Because we're here for the children. Yes, we have to jump through the hoops, but if you've got your convictions and you can see that what you are doing works and those children are successful, who are they to say it's wrong? At the end of the day, our children are fluent with their maths. They do exceptionally well with their maths. So they can't criticise it. It's not for them to say whether that approach works or that. And I think they're learning that Ofsted, if I'm honest with you. But I have to stick with my convictions. And that's come probably with experience, if I'm honest with you.

I started Headship in 2007. So for four years I was the head of one of those schools. When I wasn't asked to do the head of the other schools. To me it was a bit like, "Do you know what? I'm going to do what's right for my schools and my children." And I've stuck by that. And I think if you can't articulate that, then who's any outside agency or inspector to tell you different, because you are the one that knows your schools. I know my schools inside and out, and I know what my children need, and I know what my staff need. And as long as I know that and my schools and my children are doing really well, it doesn't matter what you do. You have to stick with your convictions and why you do what you do.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for saying that. I think that I know at Maths No Problem, that's at the heart of everything that we believe. And I think that that's the thing that we need to remind ourselves all the time is that, yeah, this...

Eliza Hollis

Who are we here for?

Andy Psarianos

Exactly. When you ask yourself, why do we do this, right? If the answer isn't in any way related to, it's the best thing for the children, then you have to question whether or not you should be doing it. Right? It's as simple as that.

Eliza Hollis

Absolutely.

Andy Psarianos

Why are we doing all this extra paperwork if it's merely to appease Ofsted, let's say? Then you have to question, is it really a good use of our time? It's those kinds of things. Just remind yourself that you're here for the children, you're not here for Ofsted. Right?

Eliza Hollis

Absolutely. That is key.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. And they will recognise that too hopefully when they come in. I mean, I know that I'm not an expert in inspections. Please don't take my advice. Do not try this at home. Listen to Eliza, don't listen to me. I'm just...

I don't know. I'm just fascinated by your journey. I really am. And I'm fascinated by the success that you've had. Because when you introduced these ideas about mastery and introduced these ideas about the Maths No Problem teaching method, which started before the new curriculum, and you started before the new curriculum, your journey started in 2011. These were merely discussions that were taking place with the people that were influencing the national curriculum at that stage, but you were actually doing it.

But at the time, if we flip back to that time and try to remember what it looked like, it was a very different landscape. We were talking about levels and we were talking about advancement, or sort of acceleration was seen as kind of a desirable thing. You got to race people through the curriculum. If you can do year seven work in year five, that's a good thing, right? That was what people thought in those days. And you came in and said, "No, I don't believe those things are true. I think these other things are true. I think that depth is more important, or sort of breadth or depth or however you want to describe it. It's more important than just pushing people forward this sort of narrow view of the curriculum. I mean, why did you feel that way and how much pushback did you get at the time?

Eliza Hollis

I think for me, this goes back to my pedagogy, my understanding, I was an early years teacher for the majority of my career. So for me, you build the foundations for learning. And if you haven't got solid foundations, they are going to crumble. And what I was seeing was children that could race up and do level six work or level five work, but didn't have the depth of understanding, they didn't know what they were doing. So actually they couldn't transfer that knowledge. So for me, if you haven't got foundations that are solid, then what is the point in trying to build it? It's all going to come crashing down. So I stuck with those principles and I still stick with those principles. For me, my whole curriculum has been built around solid foundations and making sure children have the understanding and that depth and that breadth.

Rather than doing bigger numbers, it's about understanding what is going on with the numbers. So I did get pushback, probably from the powers that be, but at the end of the day I listened to what they said, closed the door and did what was right for my children. And it's paid off, because my children have that depth and that breadth of understanding. And I still believe it to this day. So when Maths No Problem brought the foundations in, I was championing that thinking, "This is what was missing." Because again, that is the precursor to everything that we do in those foundation years. That's why it's called the foundation stage because it is about building the foundations for later learning. So I think it's down to my understanding of how I am as a teacher.

Andy Psarianos

So just to turn it a little bit, because foundations, it's a great place to think about something, which is that the influence that parents want to have on their children or how they see their children's education. I think a lot of people who are not teaching professionals, parents really fall into this, is that they will measure the success of their children by things like acceleration. So especially in those early years. So people will be very proud. They can come in and say, "Well, my child knows the alphabet, and they can count to 1,000." And they think because their child can count to 1,000 that they have the numeracy skills to, you should put them right on the year one or the year two curriculum because they can already do those things, right? Let's talk about why that's a bad idea maybe, and how you deal with that with parents.

Eliza Hollis

Okay, so that's exactly what happens. They come in, he can count to 100. And I said, "That's absolutely wonderful. But does he have the understanding of five? Does he know that those five cows that are in a row, if you change them to a different shape, they're still five." So one of the things we do is when the children start school in those early years, we get the parents involved. We have a parents meeting and we talk to them about the fundamentals of teaching maths, why we do what we do. It's great. We've got one little reception boy at the moment who he's absolutely amazing with number and he can recite all of these, but he hasn't got that depth of understanding.

So we have to teach the parents alongside teaching the children. So there they have that understanding that you can't measure success by that. But it is very much parents do come in and say, "My little one can count to 100." Yeah, but does he understand what three is? Does he understand the concept of three and what that looks like? So when you start doing that like we do with teaching them to read, we have the parents in and say, "This is how we teach maths and this is why it's important. And these are the sorts of things you can be doing at home to support that learning and that depth of learning." So yeah, absolutely.

Andy Psarianos

So how well attended are these parent seminars? Do you get a lot of buy-in from parents?

Eliza Hollis

Yeah, because when the parents start school and the children start school, parents are really keen because it's their first little one in school. So that's when you hook them, that's when you get them in, and that's when you tell them, "This is our philosophy, this is our ethos." And then they understand and then I think they buy into who we are. If I'm honest with you, it starts on when they look round. Because when I talk to parents and I talk them round the school when they're looking, they buy into who we are and what our ethos is. So hopefully they do come to the meetings because they're intrigued, because they will sit there and they'll go, "This isn't how we learned." I said, "Can you remember how you learn to read? Can any of you remember how you learned to count?" Probably not. And then when we talk, we show them the sorts of things the children do, they get really excited about it.

So they do come on board. And we talk to them about how they portray maths at home and how they are positive about maths. And if they're negative, you'll be surprised at how the children will be negative. So it's all about that positive role model, that maths is fun and maths is great. I say, "You read stories to your children at night, can you also do some number problems with the children?" Make it exciting. It should have the same weighting as everything else. But because some parents are not as confident, you don't get that. So you have to get them at the beginning.

Adam Gifford

I also suspect, Eliza that your parents will buy into it because of your clarity of message. One of the things that comes across to me is that you are very clear about the purpose of the approach, the rationale behind it. And I suspect having heard you talk about your staff and the support that they get, the professional development they get, that that gives the parents a chance to learn straight away. Because it's not wishy-washy. It's like, right, here's the deal. If we do this, we get this. If we do this, we get this. And I suppose that's such an important thing that all members of staff, that there's a sort of consistency what they talk about and the rationale and having that clarity. I imagine that your parents would learn a lot very quickly, and that would be really reassuring too. Is that?

Eliza Hollis

Powerful I think. I haven't really thought of it like that, but I think for me, like I said, it's all about building those foundations and doing what we're doing. Because otherwise, if you build it on sand, it will just collapse. You've got to have solid foundations for everything that you do. And you start it, you get them on board in reception, and they understand who we are as a school. We are very different, very different to the school down the road. And that's my philosophy. You feel it as you come into the schools, and that's something I'm proud about.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if I put on my dad hat, I think that has been missing in different times in my children's education where if I said to the teacher, "Why are they doing this now?" I'm not convinced that they'd know how it would contribute to what happens further down the track. It would be simply because they're in year three and this is the right thing to teach them in year three, and that's what I'll do and I'll do it really well. And it's like, "Okay." But like you were saying about the foundations of understanding is I think having a bit of a clue how it contributes to the ongoing success I've found as a dad that sometimes that's missing.

Eliza Hollis

But I also think everybody's different. We all learn in different ways. We've got to come away from this one-size-fits-all and this rigidity. The Maths No Problem scheme is an amazing scheme. It's how my teachers then deliver that. That's the key to it, because it's all there for them. It's got the depth, it's got everything that we need. It's then up to my teachers then to deliver it to their cohorts in their way. But it works because it's so clear and concise and you can see where we're going with it. That's why it works. So why would we deviate from that? My teachers, they can go on that. They read it, they know what they're doing, it's all there for them. And that gives them confidence. So those teachers that are not as confident become really confident mathematicians and teachers of maths because they've got Maths No Problem as a scaffold around them. And that's what I think is what's really powerful about it.

Andy Psarianos

Eliza, thank you. That's just been inspiring.

Eliza Hollis

My pleasure. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on the School of School podcast.