Episode 164: Should flexible working be more accepted in schools?

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School Podcast.

Welcome to the School of School Podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It is the regular team. We are here for another School of School Podcast. Andy and Robin are here.

Robin Potter

Hello.

Adam Gifford

You both good?

Andy Psarianos

Here we are.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Well, that's good news. That's good news. That's the way we like it. That's the way we like it on the podcast. Reading something, reading an article the other day, and it was looking at issues that might come up in education, and one of them was around this idea of flexible working, the working from home, the working in schools, how that's managed, how it can even work, and is that just an expectation now? Generally in work, do we think that there's going to be a growing expectation that this is just the way it has to be done? And I think the other part to that is, that I'm going to ask us to consider is can you work from home?

I'm thinking of say a doctor in a hospital or something like that. Something happens. Do people need to be in schools all the time on that just in case basis? Because we are working with, basically we're doing a parental role as well while they're there. So can that work? Should it work? Anyway, so I'm just going to throw it open, just get sort of initial thoughts. I've got some thoughts and observations, but I'll just sort of throw it out there and see how we go with it.

Robin Potter

So you're saying flexible as in maybe a couple of times a week or a certain course?

Adam Gifford

Perhaps, I just need a little bit more detail.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

So if anyone's listening, this is certainly the case in I think the UK, certainly in England, but school teachers get release time so it's often called PPA, so planning, preparation and assessment time. Doesn't really matter how you dress it up, but I think that most education systems will have some form of release time where you're not in class. So realistically that's the time that we are talking about is to whether you'd be on site or not, you might get some time away to undertake that. In England it's ringed fence time. It should be anyway. So that's kind of what we're talking about. There might be some ad hoc stuff, but that's the sort of regular time. So sorry, that's what I'm talking about.

Andy Psarianos

So you're not talking about trying to teach from home, right?

Adam Gifford

No.

Andy Psarianos

We're talking about... Yeah. Okay.

Robin Potter

I'm glad we clarified that. I could see Andy just ready to pounce, but now he's actually in deep thought.

Andy Psarianos

Well, I think it's the same for any profession. People can be tremendously effective at home. I mean, we all work from home. It doesn't seem to remove any of the effectiveness of what we do or the productivity, I don't think. I actually think a lot of people are more productive when they work at home than when they work in an environment. Assuming that you've got a home environment that leads to productivity. If you're going to be home and there's going to be really small children there or it's a very disruptive environment, then it's probably not such a good idea. But I think you need to be able to make a space at home where you can work. But if you can do that, you can be tremendously effective at home. Right?

Adam Gifford

What I find interesting though is that before the pandemic, the vast majority of schools that I knew, they wouldn't do it, and I think that might be a trust thing that it was sort of seen. But I was saying to Robin before we started the recording, a couple of things. That in New Zealand, it was kind of normal for every teacher to have the keys to the school and it was really normal, and I hope this has been addressed because I don't think it should be the norm, but to go in on a weekend and to spend maybe a couple of hours in your classroom on the weekend because you were uninterrupted. And I know that as a head every now and then I would work from home and the productivity that I would get from working at home was at least threefold, at least, because of those interruptions that happen.

But I wonder whether that shift, it would be interesting to know, is that sort of trustworthiness, is it happening? And I can see that certainly in a school because there's people everywhere, small people, big people, parents, all sorts of people who might want your time. That I would say that it's an absolutely perfect time in terms of productivity to get that done. I suppose the only thing that I question is whether or not, but there should be staff enough, is whether or not we need to be in schools for just in case, for the things that might happen for taking care of those children that might need that person around. And then there's a fairness issue to it all. So I just thought, I'm not sure, it must be a tricky one to manage because I think there'd be an expectation now that you can work from home because teachers were doing it throughout the pandemic globally.

Andy Psarianos

I think there's also another important factor here, which we have to bring up, which is technology. So go back 15 years, chances are everything you had that you needed for your work was at school, because it was either written on a piece of paper or it was physically on the computer that you had in the classroom because you weren't connected to the internet, you didn't have a way to access things. Now, with things like the cloud and technology where you can have files from places where it doesn't matter where you are, you can bring your laptop home. It's the same as being in the office, you can bring your whole office with you regardless of where you are. That was more difficult 15 years ago, especially in schools where connectivity to technology has always been a limitation. So that barrier's gone now. I mean, you may still choose to work in ways that are restrictive, but that's because you choose to, not because it's hard or expensive or anything like that. It's just normal to have access to stuff wherever you are now.

That barrier's gone, so that's a big shift. So in the past you might say to your teacher, wait, I don't see how you can do your job at home because all the stuff that you need is at the school, wouldn't it be in the back of your mind to say, "Well, how are you going to do stuff if you can't access the things that you need?" But that's not a barrier anymore, so blow that one out of the water. So now it's just really a question of trust. I think you're absolutely right, Adam. You're suspicious that if you let people work from home, maybe they're going to be at the pub or doing their shopping or whatever instead of actually working.

Is that all that bad though? If they are? You see, I think there's a mindset shift that has to happen in society, which is this. You start work at nine, you finish at five, and that's your workday. Because for me, my life doesn't work that way anymore. It did when I used to go to an office, but now I'll do all kinds of things in a day that are personal things, but I'm also then doing things on the weekend or after hours or I'm fitting my work in around or fitting my life and my work together all the time. I'm constantly drifting from one to the other, but I'm always available. I always have my phone with me, people can message me whenever. If it's urgent, I'll respond right away. It doesn't matter where I am.

So there's kind of a trade-off where I expect people in the company to be similar too. I expect that if there's an emergency, I can pick up the phone and call someone and say, "Hey, the servers are down. No one can access the teaching guides." People on the team will jump on it right away. It's happened several times. It doesn't matter that it's Sunday at two A.M. they'll get out of bed and they'll jump on it because it's an urgent situation. It's happened several times.

Adam Gifford

I think the only difference, and I think again, I would like to think that society is more accepting of this, is if you're a parent. So if you're a parent and you see your child's teacher in the supermarket and it's 2:30 on a Tuesday, then you could assume that that person either should have been ill or all those sorts of things. But again, I would like to think that society has changed enough over the pandemic to realise that actually, just as you've said Andy, I mean ultimately what do we want out of people? We just want them to do their jobs. So that's ultimately what you want, is you want people to fulfil whatever they're getting paid to do and whatever that looks like, like teachers and so many people in so many professions, they're not just working nine to five.

I also wonder too if it's just a case of when that decision's made you bring the community in with it. I mean to me it almost shouldn't be a talking point, but it's come up as a talking point, reading an article and thinking it wouldn't surprise me at all if people are coming into the profession that they would just expect that to be the case. That when I'm not in class, it would be reasonable for me to be able to work remotely to get whatever I need done, done in an environment that often is more conducive to focused work than a school which is full of constant distractions. That's just the reality of that situation.

Robin Potter

I was having this conversation with a colleague yesterday because we had a team meeting which we're trying to do every week, and we were saying how productive it was to be together in a different way than when we are working remotely. And we were talking about the pros and cons of both because, and you certainly could apply that in the teaching world, and like you said, there are so many distractions when you're actually in the school environment that to have this really focused time at home to get things done is extremely valuable. It's just different. And Adam, you were sharing that story about how you found yourself getting so much done when you were working away from the school because people weren't interrupting you constantly and yet being interrupted and having those conversations with other teachers or maybe parents or whatever is also extremely valuable. So yeah, I don't see anything wrong with having a balance of both. I mean they're both effective, but in different ways.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, I think it's when it starts, but the other thing you need to also understand is if you need to talk to parents, well, why can't you have a phone conversation with them? Or why can't you have a Zoom call or a Google meet call? It doesn't have to be face-to-face, right? So my daughter's secondary school does a lot of even parent teacher interviews and stuff online, and you know what? It works really well. It works really well because it means for me that I can jump in and talk to the teacher without having to get in my car, drive to the school.

So if I'm at work and I know, okay, I got my 20 minutes slotted in with the teacher, I can talk to them right now. I can take that, and that flexibility, that ability to trust people that, hey, even during their work hours, they're going to do some personal stuff, but they're also going to do some work stuff in their personal hours and we remove that transition, let people organise their lives a little bit around what works for them, and that flexibility you make people infinitely more productive.

Look, just right now, I mean we all work from home, so I don't think we're bought into the idea. I can imagine that it could work for anybody in any circumstance.

What are we trying to do right now? We're trying to organise a meeting between Adam, me and Alex Laurie in New Zealand. Okay, worst possible scenario time zone wise, there's three of us and the three of us are all eight hours apart in time. It's a perfect triangle. Someone's going to have to take one for the team and get up either really early or stay up really late to get on a meeting. And that's just the way it's going to work. It's the only way the three of us can meet, but we can do things like that. You want people to be open to say, "Yeah, I'm going to take a meeting at nine o'clock at night," even though it's not really convenient because the trade-off is that, well, maybe during their day they're going to fit something else in that otherwise would've been complicated, like a meeting with a teacher or something for their child. So that flexibility is great. I think everyone needs to look towards that.

Adam Gifford

I think the only other observation, I agree with that and that meeting, what the only alternative is long haul flights, right? So everyone flies, the expense that would be attached to that sort of meeting is prohibitive, impossible. All of those sorts of things.

Andy Psarianos

Weeks of jet lag.

Adam Gifford

Yeah. Like massive, massive implications,

Andy Psarianos

Huge carbon emission implications.

Adam Gifford

Yeah.

Robin Potter

But that's what everyone used to do.

Andy Psarianos

That's what we used to do.

Adam Gifford

Or you didn't have the meeting or it was done in a way that was send and reply, like emails, things get lost in translation, all that sort of stuff.

Andy Psarianos

Things would take months, right?

Adam Gifford

Yeah. Yeah. Long time. But I think also the other thing for schools is that because en masse people were able to work from home, and I'd be amazed if what I've said about productivity and thinking when I had that space to come home and just do work on something that I was so much more productive at various times than being in the office at school.

I think also it should raise the question about often in schools, they always proudly proclaim that there's an open door policy, and I think sometimes the door needs to be closed. I think sometimes there needs to be that space that open door policies sound great at times that I'm always available to be talked to and stuff. But actually no, there should be times where professionals are not open to be talked to and they need to close the door and have that space because without it, so even if you don't go home or whatever the setup is, I think what we all would've learned from the space that we have when we set up and we do our work and we go about our business, having time that's uninterrupted, just time even just to sit and reflect, that is so crucial, I think, to doing a good job. That that's something else that, I mean, it's not just education.

There's loads of people that will proclaim having an open door policy or dress it up as whatever you want to talk about it is that just sometimes needs, to me anyway, that needs to be addressed because I'm not convinced it's a healthy thing.

Andy Psarianos

No, absolutely. Certain types of work, I mean, you just can't even imagine how people can, teaching is a serious business. I mean, we always play down teaching in the sense that we think it's a bit like anybody could teach, and we don't, but some people do because they just imagine us basically taking care of our two children and filling the gaps with lots of talking or what oversimplified version of what teaching is. Teaching is serious business. It requires a tremendous amount of planning to be really good at it. And you have to have that time as a teacher to think about, what am I trying to do? And then sit back and reflect on whether or not you're succeeding at what you're doing. You need that time and you can't think along those terms if you're constantly interrupted. Right?

Robin Potter

So there needs, again, I think it comes back to trust, which Adam, you've pointed out originally and maybe being willing to see there's a balance of having that time, like you said, open door versus a closed door, but it's a different world than it was 10 years ago.

Andy Psarianos

Let me ask you a question I think that would be really important for us to cover here, and I'll ask it to you, Adam, because you're the one with the real world teaching experience, recent real world teaching experience. Why is there so many trust issues in education?

Adam Gifford

I think because people are scared. I don't know. I think it's because for so long, ever since I arrived in the UK, now this isn't unique to the UK by the way, a lot of press have said teachers aren't doing well enough. There has been that message so often standards aren't where they should be. Every time there's electioneering, we get told that as a profession, we're just simply not good enough. So if you have that as your national message, compare it to Singapore where there's pride in teaching. Actually there's master teacher awards. So I think that's the ground that we operate in, is it's never good enough. You think about Ofsted and we hear those horrific stories where it's not good enough. Tragedies that happen because they don't feel good enough. So everyone is so scared of not being good enough. The idea that people would take their work away and not be fully focused on their work and just working on that, it's going to leave chinks in the armour and will be seen as not good enough.

And I think that feeds into it. I mean, I don't know this for sure, but I think it's that idea that if I'm not keeping tabs on you as a leader, we won't be good enough. That something will slip, something will slide, something, you won't be doing your job well enough. And I think that that's a real shame because that's not how you treat professionals.

So on one hand, the educationalist, we want to be seen that teaching is a profession, but I would argue is it seen as professional as lawyers, as professional as doctors? And I could go through these that people might just relate very comfortably with. This is a profession. I think the public image of teachers is not in the same realm. And I think that that's a massive issue. I think that if we keep being told that we are not good enough, we're not professional enough, we're not all of these things, then it's easy for people to buy into that and think, well, if I let people loose on this, they're not going to do it. And I think it permeates the profession. I think it's desperately sad. And I'm sure there'll be other podcasts and things that we talk about, about retention, all these sorts of things that feed into that message. I don't know, it's pretty broad, but I think that that probably feeds into it.

Robin Potter

It's almost like perception from other teachers, from the profession itself, from the parents. It's how the teachers think they need to be perceived.

Adam Gifford

These messages they've been, I've been here in the UK 20 years, and like I said, this isn't just a UK thing. I was back in New Zealand recently and I was listening to, prior to the election, I was reading newspaper articles and people talking about the state of education, and this isn't good enough, that isn't good enough, those sorts of things. And if you work within it, that's effectively saying it'd be easy to perceive you are not good enough. You guys just simply aren't good enough. Yet you put your heart and soul into what you're doing. And yeah, of course there's going to be some really good teachers and some not so good teachers. Some people that you want to keep in the profession, some that you don't want to keep in the profession. Of course that's true of every job, every situation. But I think that's the one for me is that we're just scared if we don't keep that tight leash on everyone, things go wrong. We need that level of accountability or we need that oversight or things go terribly wrong. But I don't believe that to be true.

Andy Psarianos

Well, things do go terribly wrong in education often, but it's rarely because of the teachers. I mean, of course there's exceptions, there's outlier teachers who are problematic. But we know we've talked about this in a different podcast. It's the system. When education is failing, it's always, always, always systemic. We know that. Research shows that. Right? So let's stop blaming the teachers for a minute, and let's think about why the system's not working. Anyway, what are we going to say to wrap it up?

Adam Gifford

Well, I think trust the professions. I think trust the professionals, understand that we can take that learning from a situation that made us work from home and work on the strengths. Look at all of the good stuff that's happened for that and think, yeah, well we got this out of it and we were able to do this. So-

Andy Psarianos

Work on the strengths.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, that's it.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on the School of School Podcast.