Episode 171: I didn’t sign up for THIS — 1 in 10 teachers are leaving in their first year…

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School podcast.

Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back to another School of School podcast. We have me here in the UK. I'm going to introduce myself first, which is unorthodox. It's an unorthodox start to the podcast. And we've got our resident Canadians. How are you, Robin?

Robin Potter

Yeah, I'm great. Yes, thanks for asking.

Andy Psarianos

I feel like a million bucks actually, considering.

Adam Gifford

That's good, because you had been like a million bucks just recently. So I'm pleased to hear that you're on the mend. A pretty major report's been released just recently, the school workforce in England report that the government puts out. It's around the teaching workforce in education, and there's some pretty scary statistics in there. And I thought that we could touch on some of them and perhaps even come back to this in future podcasts when we unpick it a bit more. But one of the thing that leaps out, I think the headline figures that leapt out to me, was first of all the number of teachers that are leaving the profession. I think if you dig into that a little bit more, the number of teachers who are leaving the profession in their first year. And also, the recruitment stats and the fact that the number of unfilled vacancies across the UK is at a scary rate.

We've got teaching assistants taking classes. This is particularly true in secondary school where specialist teachers are becoming more and more difficult to recruit. This is worrying. This is really, really concerning. And I think one of the things that came out from the report or one of the suggestions is that workload is something that's contributing quite heavily. And I just wondered. We've all seen the report briefly. But I wonder what your initial take on it is and just thinking about some of the things that from our perspective, our observations, the reactions to it, things that perhaps can be done about it.

Andy Psarianos

Teaching used to be quite a nice profession I think for a lot of people. It had a doing good feeling to it. You're giving back to the community. You weren't going to become rich, you weren't going to become famous, but you'd be maybe respected. People would think you were a good person if you were a teacher. I don't think that's the case anymore. People just really dump on teachers all the time. It's become quite a difficult job actually.

Robin Potter

Absolutely. I think about it when just dealing with our own teachers and trying to find time for them to connect with us is difficult, because they have such a rigorous schedule. And not just inside of classroom time. Even after hours. They are very, very involved in their community and their school. And I'm wondering if that is a turnoff for some of the younger teachers, that it's kind of like, "I didn't sign up for this. It sounded nice. I wanted to be helping students. But this is far more than I bargained for."

Adam Gifford

I think too, Robin, if we took just an interpretation of some of the numbers and just picking up on what you said, I think to myself, ... One of the stats that jumped out to me is that one in 10 ... And this was an England survey by the way, so this is teaching England. But I would suggest that this is something that could be seen in lots of countries, is that one in 10 who are leaving teaching in the first year, I think to myself, okay, there is a difference from when you're training to a teacher to when it's your class. There is a difference. But I think to myself you allow for some people to realise that the jobs not for them, partly because of some of the things that you might have talked about or the responsibility or dealing with parents and dealing with children, where you are ultimately responsible in the classroom.

And I think we allow for that. That's always been the case, that the job's not for everyone. And when you get in the classroom, whether it's right for you and the types of things that ... The commitment that you make, not just to your class, but to the community as you've pointed out. But I think when there's 10% of all first year teachers, thousands and thousands of teachers, I think that that goes well beyond just, "Oh, now we've found out what teaching's like and we're off." Because like I said, the majority of people know if teaching's right for them when they're doing their training. They're in schools. For a lot of people in primary, certainly, it's the first time they've been in school, in a primary school, since they were there. And most primary school teach when they train, but they don't go back to primary school. Maybe as a parent, but you're standing on the gates.

So I just think that the reality of teaching doesn't ... It wouldn't result in a 10% leaving after the first year, because you've already had a taste of it. I think something's broken in the system, that if there's staff shortages, that means everyone has to pick up a little bit more. If that's the case, the job itself and like what Andy said, if the public face of teaching is not great, if what we hear about is teachers failing children or various different conversations around the standards of education, then who would want to put themselves into that arena? And then you get fewer teachers and it's ever decreasing circles because the more needs to be picked up, the quality of teaching. And this is jumping to secondary where you've got teaching assistants, taking classes lessons. And it becomes less and less attractive. Why would you want to be part of that? And I think that I've got some ideas around the long term, but it's really tough. It's really tough for people there to do the job well I think, because of the situation they find themselves in.

Robin Potter

So the question I have for you then is if it is broken, how do we fix it?

Andy Psarianos

Well, it's like any system. When it's broken, you've got to go back to first principles. You've got to go back to say, "Okay, why are we doing this? What is the purpose? Where is it going wrong?" And remind yourself, "Hey. At school, every day we do this. Why do we do that again? Okay, should we be doing that?" You've got to go back and ask yourself. Because I think what ends up happening with teaching, because it's so high scrutiny now. Everybody's being watched all the time. Every year, it's like, "What are your SAS results?" Schools are judged. Even people's house prices go up and down based on how a school is doing. So it's become so high scrutiny at all levels. The parents, the government. You've got organisations like Ofsted. You've got national figures. Blahty, blahty, blahty, blah. And then everybody, all these special interest groups, are putting extra pressure on you.

So you've got to, "Hey, you've got to cater to all this sort of ideas about gender. You've got to cater for that now in school. But wait, don't offend these communities. Because these communities, that doesn't resonate with them." And all this is being left to the teachers. And there's no answers. Nobody's giving any answers. They're just saying, "Make sure you get it right." So the pressure on teachers is just so high and no one's really helping them. And then part of this report, the school workforce in England report, it highlights we're not even investing in training our teachers really. So teachers aren't being trained. So no one's saying to them, "Okay. Hey, let's talk about this. Let's figure out a solution. Let's work together." We're not just talking about teaching content. Teaching content is why they're there, but I don't think that's the problems they're running into. I think the problems they're running into is dealing with the community and with society as a whole, and expectations on them is just too high. We're just asking too much for these people and we don't even pay them well.

Robin Potter

Well, that's the other part of the issue, I'd say.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, and I think too, that the model that's gone into training teachers over the years is do it faster, cheaper. Well, you can't do that. It's as simple as that. You can't do it. So if you are putting people who are less and less prepared for the job into higher and higher stake situations, you're asking for trouble. So I think that systematically, right at the very beginning, I was talking about this to some people just the other day, is if anyone was to say, "What's the professional development path for teachers once they become teachers?" Well, we have recommendations for the first year of their teaching. After that, it's hit-and-miss. We're putting people in high stakes situations and they don't even know all of the skillset that they need. They don't have it laid out for them to say, "This is how you can become more expert."

And when we become more expert in anything, it becomes easier to do. And then every time, if you're a better cook, making a pancake's not as high stakes anymore. But if every time you go to do it, there's a slight variation on it and you freak out, which is what happens with government policy or changes from advisory people, supposedly who are funded centrally. Then the resilience to that is low because we've not been trained and we don't have a foundation. Like the ready-to-progress document or these other documents that are just thrown in our laps. Yet, because we don't have the foundation to look at it and think, "Actually, I'm going to make a professional decision about how I use this," there's often reactions to it. Like I've got to make this work because I'm not in a position to question it because I don't understand enough.

And I don't think that that's fair. And that does relate back to workload because the perception is I've got to respond to everything that comes into me and I've got to make it. I've got to be good at it and be able to deliver it tomorrow. And it's not on because we're setting these people up to fail. And if anyone talks to teachers, especially these people that are looking to leave, they're going to say to other people, "No, don't become a teacher." It's impossible to get it right. It's very difficult to get it right. Yet, it's crucial we do.

And so I think that there's a lot of different ingredients in this that are playing their part, in making the job far more difficult than it needs to be when people go into it with really good intention. They want to do really well for their community, and they put their heart and soul into it. And so I think it's not fair. I think that there are some serious systematic ... Beginning at central government. And the people who are funded by central government. It's a massive responsibility and it's not being taken seriously enough, I don't believe.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. And I think there's also an element where there's a leadership gap in a lot of schools. So by that, what I mean is that ... And you've talked about this Adam before in your journey to becoming a head teacher in a school. That, hey, you showed up in the job and there was no instruction manual. There was nobody there. There wasn't even really a good support group around or you were on your own. Now I'm running a school, you're on your own. And I think that when you look at schools that are doing it, that are managing really well ... Okay, and managing, I think is the right word.

You see that there's often, or almost without exception, a strong leader in the school who is able to say to the teachers, "Look, don't worry about all this stuff. This is what we are going to do, and your part of that is to do this. And all that other stuff, don't worry about it. I'll take care of it. And you guys are going to teach and this is how we're going to address this and this is how we're going to ..." And it comes from the top. And when you just throw that to the teachers and say, "Make sure you meet this criteria, this criteria, this criteria, this criteria," it's just too much. It's overwhelming. It's all too confusing for the teachers. They don't know what to do and they get frustrated. So leadership is a key element in a successful school.

Adam Gifford

I completely agree.

Andy Psarianos

But we don't train people to be leaders. We don't even train them to be teachers, really.

Adam Gifford

That's true.

Andy Psarianos

Not well.

Adam Gifford

And unless we work in those schools where leadership has been modelled well, then it's difficult to pick up how you're doing it. Like you're saying, it's up to you to forge your own path to decide how that works, because there isn't that clear structure. And I think when you look at top performing jurisdictions ... Now, I'm not sure about teacher attention in those places, but if you are met with success and societally, you are met with respect, then that's probably going to make people either want to be a teacher and stay being a teacher. But if you look at those places, they do exactly how you've described. They have long-term development set out very clearly. And that path is the not deviating too much within it. And we are fortunate because we get to see so many great schools, and you can just feel it in the school. You know that if you are a new teacher there starting in September, you get taken into the fold, into the culture.

And it's probably really evident your path and what it looks like. And I'm sure every conversation you have in those schools with other teachers, "Oh, how many years have you been teaching here?" "Two." "Oh, yeah, we did this in the second year." "Oh, we've been teaching here five." "Oh, I'm starting to do this." And it will be really clear about where they're heading. But if it's a reactionary thing to policy change, or the worst of it I think is the perceived policy change, where central government funded places are putting out ... I don't know, what is it? Advice, guidance, let's call it what you will. But that can be seen as policy and people believe they need to react to it. And they need to react to it yesterday or something terrible is going to happen. And they really believe that terribleness, which is not right.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Well, because they're worried about this, I don't know, the boogeyman offset or whatever, going to come in and going to ask them the question, how have you implemented the latest recommendations from this quango organisation into your practise? And where's the evidence of it? That's what they worry about. They don't worry about, "How am I going to get these kids to understand this concept or remember this important fact for historical fact? Or how can I make it interesting to them, or how can I engage with them?" They don't worry about those things. They worry about, "When is the Ofsted inspector going to come and question me about the ready-to-progress document written by the NCTM X number of years ago?" And blahty, blahty, blahty, blah. And it's just nonsense. It's just nonsense.

So how do we get beyond that? How do we get beyond that in a school? How does an individual teacher do ... Well, what do they do? They just quit. Say, "Well, this is dumb. I'm not going to do this. I'll go work at the supermarket. I'll make as much money, and all I have to do is"-

Robin Potter

No pressure.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. You know what I mean? That's the issue.

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

And so go back ... Sorry, Robin. I-

Robin Potter

I was just going to say-

Andy Psarianos

I'm all excited now. If you look at high-performing nation, you look at the data in PISA and TIMSS, what's clear is is that high-performing nations invest in the system and they invest in the professionals. And in a lot of cases, the government is a lot more hands-off in high-performing nations. It's not seemingly so. They're more involved in distributing the funds to make sure they go to the right places, and they think more strategically at the policy level. And they let it happen in the classroom.

Adam Gifford

And I think there's more ... Because often, we talk about Singapore, and that's almost a unique case, governmentally. But then you look at Japan, which is different again. But what they've got in common is a real respect for teachers. So I think there's that respect from government, that education professionals know what they're doing. And I think that the respect element, certainly in the UK, is just not there in the same way.

Andy Psarianos

But they don't just believe in a kind of fairytale way that all teachers are good people and they'll do a good job.

Adam Gifford

Oh, no. Oh, gosh.

Andy Psarianos

They make sure that the teachers are good-

Adam Gifford

Yeah, absolutely.

Andy Psarianos

By investing in them upfront to make sure they're good teachers when they get in the classroom. And then they let them do it.

Adam Gifford

I think something that was really interesting, in an interesting set of circumstance, I was talking to an MP from Austria about education. And he was saying that if you look at the sort of standards, talking about professional development or accountability. And he was saying that actually, the absolute lack of accountability is an issue as well. And they were talking about graduates coming in where there's a long training. So I think it's seven years, six, seven years to become a teacher. But then no one ever checks on you as a teacher again. So I think that it's that combination and balance of saying, "Of course there's going to be accountability because we want to see that you're progressing as a professional. But what we will do is we won't leave that progression to chance. It'll be incredibly well-thought-out and we'll support you throughout that progression."

And of course, if you're not doing it or you're not putting the work in, then that's an issue. That's not fair on the children. And so I think it's that balance that is, as you're saying, with the structural setup to it. It just makes sense. If you want better doctors, you put a programme in place to make sure their expertise are constantly developing. If you want to learn mathematics, you put it in a certain order. If you want to do anything, if you want to make an omelette, you break the egg first.

It's these things that are so blindingly obvious. But unfortunately, there's been so many things that have ebbed or chipped away. But I think it's going to be one of those situations, unfortunately, in that it's got to hit absolutely desperate rock bottom for something to change. Look, there's an election coming up, so that will have its part to play. But when you've got thousands of classrooms ... So just assume so now you've got tens of thousands of children without teachers in front of them. In a nation that is one of the wealthiest in the world, it just doesn't make sense and it's not fair. I keep coming back to that. It's just not fair. It's not fair on the people who are having to front up and stand in front of the kids. It's not on. It's not on. But yeah, it's being allowed to happen.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on the School of School podcast.