Episode 174: Using journals with Maths — No Problem!

Andy Psarianos

Hi. I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi. I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi. I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School Podcast.

Speaker 4:

Welcome to the School of School Podcast.

Ed Parkinson

So I think if anyone listened to the previous podcast, I was talking about how we introduced Maths — No Problem! in our school. And one of the things that we were shown when we were initially thinking about how we could implement this scheme across the school was the idea of journaling. And if I'm honest, it's not something that I'd ever heard of before. And the idea of maths journaling, the historic me would've thought, "Well, writing would be in a topic book or an English book, in an English lesson, and maths is for calculations, solving problems. Why would we expect the children to write?"

So initially that was... I was unaware of what a journal was, what its purpose was. And it was only when we started exploring how to implement Maths — No Problem!, what mastery looks like and we were shown the idea of what a journal could be that we got really excited and we thought, "Wow. This is brilliant." Because the thing about the journal for those listeners that don't know is it's almost like a window into the pupil's mind. You can flick through a maths journal, which is a maths book. It's a textbook, but we call it the journal. But you open up this journal and we've got pages and pages now of... We try and journal every day. I'll talk about what that is and what that looks like. But we've got a journal entry each day, and for us, you look at it and you can tell where the pupils, what their thought processes are, are they proficient with a method. And for us, that's been great.

So yeah, initially when we were looking at implementing Maths — No Problem!, we went back to the UK to visit Three Bridges School in Southall, and they were using math journaling and David, the math leader there, he explained to us how they had taken the idea of journaling and developed it into, and there were four different journal types as it were. And the idea is that in Maths — No Problem!, in maths mastery lessons, you've got this anchor task and the anchor task is something that the pupils are able to explore. And then you bring that all together with the teaching input where the teacher models what the pupils have discovered, how they might have solved a problem, onto a flip chart, which is called our anchor chart. And then from that, we would then expect the pupils to go and work in their journal.

So typically when we started this, the journal type that we were teaching the children to replicate was what's called a descriptive journal. And the idea behind that is it's basically can they replicate the method that you might have worked on? So how we would typically run it in our school is that if it was key stage one, if it was year one, it may be early into year two, the journal for those pupils would be more like a worksheet. There might be a sentence with little blanks left out, so the pupils are having to think about the problem that they've been exposed to and they're having to try and describe how they would solve that. And that then gives us an insight into have they understood this, are they able to replicate this method.

In our reception class, we've just started using foundations this year. So for the children in foundations, their journal is the workbook. It's like that's what they know their journal as. So as they move up through into year one, the transition to that is that their journal that they would be expected to complete would be almost similar to the anchor task. So we've introduced them a problem. The teacher might have reframed that slightly, maybe changed some of the numbers slightly, but the concept is still the same, and we're trying to see whether the children... Whether they've mastered it.

What we try and encourage is as the pupils get more proficient with this idea of having to write something in a book, having to describe a method, we take the scaffolds away and we would maybe teach and model to the children's sentence starters and how they could explain something, but we expect them to write and to draw their own models and to draw their own pictorial representations. And that kind of thing follows up into key stage two where the children have had a few years of being proficient, they know what a journal is, and so then the expectation is clear and they're just able to run with it. So that's like the starting point. I'd say that's where we... That's where the majority of our journals sit, is this idea of being able to replicate the method. But as the children get more confident... And this is where I speak about the kind of journey that we've been on. Early on in our journey when we said, "Right. We're going to try pupil journaling for all of..." It was new for everyone. We didn't really know. It was something that we'd never explored before.

So this descriptive journal was just the way in, where most people are confident. We've modelled the anchor task, now you go and have a go at something similar. But as we've evolved, as we've got better, we're introducing more journal types. And so one of the others is this idea of an evaluative journal and Maths — No Problem!, that some of the resources do actually... That some of the anchor tasks are actually this idea of an evaluation where essentially you've got... There's a problem. One character says one thing. One character says another thing. Or somebody thinks they've solved the method, but they might have got the wrong answer. So the level for the children, the demand on them, is a little bit higher because they've got to be proficient in a method, they've got to understand the learning, and then they've got to be able to justify and give a reason for who they think is correct or where the mistake is.

So that's something that we found is harder to teach children that are maybe not used to journaling, because if they've come in to our school and they might not have been exposed to this way of learning before to then suddenly be asked, "Why do you think this person's right?" Or, "Why do you think this person's wrong?" you often get the answer, "I just know. I just know." And so we have to unpick that. And for us, I think how does it develop our pupil reasoning? I think in the past, before we were using Maths — No Problem! we might... As any school would do, there'd be assessments, there'd be assessment procedures, and you'd be able to get snapshots of where the children were, what their attainment was like at any point in the year, but I think for us, it gives us another layer. If we know a child scores well on a paper, that's one thing, but to then open their journal and say, "They're an excellent reasoner. Here's the evidence," it speaks for itself. It's been brilliant.

For years... When we initially learned about it, David taught us about four journal types. So I've talked about descriptive and evaluative, but there were two others that we didn't really touch on because it takes time. Like anything, you have to... I think you said, Andy, before we started recording about when you start something new, the first attempt at that new thing is always going to be worse or might look worse than what your last attempt at the thing that you've decided to move away from kind of thing.

So journaling was new. We needed to build up to the point where we were, "Can we introduce the last two?" But we've started that and I think that's something that we might want to continue to develop and think about how we can make it progressive across our school. But it's this idea of... Well, there's two. One's creative, where you are saying to the children, "Okay. We've been given an anchor task. There's a problem. Can you create your own problem that is similar?" The other one, which... Again, Maths — No Problem! sometimes it will throw up an investigation. It's this idea of an investigative journal, where there might be more than one possibility.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Those investigative journals are such a fantastic way to push, especially those who are finding a topic particularly easy or whatever, because you can ask questions that they might just know the answer. So I don't know. Let's think of something. Let's look at a geometry context. You might say, "Is it possible for a right angle triangle to have three equal length sides?" Okay. So that's an interesting question. So now you have to start thinking. Now a really advanced student who finds geometry reasonably easy will be able to tell you almost instantaneously that that's not possible. But then obviously the next question is why is it not possible. So now they need to start digging. And what you're looking for is someone's going to say to you, "Well, if..." You're looking for some insight, like, "If all three sides are equal, all three angles must be equal. Therefore, it can't be 90 degrees." Now they'll never have been taught that specifically, explicitly like that, but somewhere in there, that's part of the curriculum, but for them to come to that conclusion is going so deep into their understanding of triangles and it's...

Ed Parkinson

Yeah. Yeah. You've hit the nail on the head. I think that's it. I mean, it really is a shift in the way of working, in the way of teaching, because the classrooms, it's that discussion, it's the talk, but I think it's this idea of everyone in the class is following along at the same point. We have these concepts we're introducing, but it's like you said, sometimes you introduce something and some of the pupils just get it, so... But that idea of, okay, as a teacher, I look forward and go, "I've got quite a confident class," or, "There might be some children that get this." So that journal point of the lesson is where you can... Rather than... I'm talking years ago now, but for us, this is the way we work now, but I know in the past, people talk differentiation and differentiation in the past was always by the task.

So you'd have... For maybe those learners that needed more support, they would have a different task from the pupils that were maybe more able, whereas this is not like that. Everyone's got the same task, the expectations that we're all doing this, but the level that you're able to access it is open. So everyone's able to succeed. All the children are able to feel that they have succeeded in the lesson. And you know by the outcomes of what the pupils are able to produce or the questions that you might give them. You can steer different pupils in different directions and tease more from them. Everyone's achieved and there's your differentiation. You're not doing any extra. You're not changing the task in any way. But you're obviously changing the pitch and the expectation. So yeah. It's...

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. And the jargon for that is, I guess, the language is differentiation by outcomes, which sounds like not a good thing, but actually that's what we're talking about here. When we're saying outcomes, we're talking about depth. So if you ask that question to someone who was not, shall we say, maybe struggling a little bit, what they might do, so the geometry question, "Can a triangle have a 90 degree angle and have equal sides?" they might just start drawing a bunch of triangles and their process is trial and error. And they may-

Ed Parkinson

Yeah. That's fine.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. That's fine. That's great, if they're... That's what you want them to do. You want them be able to draw and measure triangles. That's fantastic. So they're measuring the sides and they're fantastic. But for that more advanced, a student that's gone a little bit further down, a little bit deeper into the topic already, he might not draw any triangles. It might just be an entire thought experiment. He might be able to visualise the thing in his head and try to work out what could you do to make this possible and come to the conclusion that it's not possible without ever drawing anything. And that's differentiation by outcome. It's the same question. One child has gone way deeper than the other. And that's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It sounds bad. It sounds bad. But it's not bad.

Adam Gifford

I also think the way that you've talked about your introduction, Ed, and I've heard you talk about this before, and I think that your school's in safe hands leadership-wise, because there's a common thread in what you talk about. You talk about initially bringing in a type of journaling and it sounds like you make that habitual.

And I always think that one thing... We see the journals. We see the children doing them. And we see the outcome. But there's a step before that that I think's a real fundamental shift, which is to me really, really important, is that the children know what's coming. So they know that they're going to be thinking for themselves and they're going to have a voice. They don't have to wait necessarily to be heard, like say, if your hands up on the carpet or anything like that, because realistically, that's going to hit a tiny number of your kids and it could well be the same children over and over again. We hear their voices all the time. Not in a bad way, it's just that's the way it works.

But knowing that you're about to do something and it's going to be on you to explore this further, I think once you get that established, and I think that that's the way that you talk about it is lovely, because it means that they're going to be quite well versed in the expectation of, "Right. I'm going to get a chance to think for myself. I'm going to be able to do this."

Ed Parkinson

I think it's really powerful, Adam. I think that's been one of the brilliant things about this approach is that the structure is there and that is there throughout every lesson across the school. So the cognitive load, like you just said, on the children is we reduce that massively because across the school they know what's coming. They know what to expect at each part of the lesson. And like you said, this is your chance to discuss with your group. This is your chance to share your ideas. This is the chance to put your ideas to paper. And then right at the end when they're completing workbook questions, "This is the chance to show what I know," kind of thing. So yeah.

Adam Gifford

It's good leadership, Ed, as far as I can see.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on the School of School Podcast.