Episode 176: Passionate for primary school learning — A maths lead’s experience

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School Podcast. Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another School of School podcast. Look, we've had a couple of goes at this introduction, so we're really getting into it now. This one's for real. Okay. We're here with the usual gang, Robin and Andy. How are you both?

Robin Potter

Yes, very good. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Good.

Robin Potter

Enjoying the summer.

Adam Gifford

Good.

Andy Psarianos

Nice and hot.

Adam Gifford

Yeah. All right. He's just dropping that in because we're talking about the UK currently, in the anti-heat wave of our summer currently. But also, joining us from the UK, it's a real pleasure to have Felix Savedra. Felix, what a pleasure to have you here. How are things with you?

Felix Savedra

Good. We're just saying that England had recently lost a Euros final, but I'm doing well. I'm fine. We're soldiering on, nearly end of the year doing well.

Adam Gifford

Felix, we can assure you it'll be out bounds. It'll be out of bounds in terms of topics and conversations throughout the duration of this podcast. Felix, you're a Maths Lead and a year three teacher at Wray Common Primary school. And we're here to talk about your school and your staff, your decisions around Maths No Problem, and just Maths generally at Wray Common. So perhaps, you could start just by telling us a little bit about yourself and then we'll get into the Maths programme and all the good things that happen at your school.

Felix Savedra

Yes, as you said, I'm currently a year three teacher and Maths Lead at Wray Common Primary School. I started a teaching assistant about eight or nine years ago and then absolutely fell in love with primary school. Did my training, did my SCITT at Wray Common and I've worked my way up. I've started as a reception TA, then a bit of teaching in year one, a bit of teaching in year two, a bit of teaching in year three. So I'm slowly creeping up the school, but I absolutely adore Maths and adore primary school teaching.

Robin Potter

So what is it about primary school that's so appealing?

Felix Savedra

I think that the children's absolute thirst for knowledge. Pretty much all children, no matter the subject, what you are learning, they absolutely want to learn. They're absolute sponge and it's just such a creative buzzy classroom with all children wanting to learn.

Adam Gifford

So I want to jump in. I think one of the highest compliments that can be paid to a school is when in your instance, a teaching assistant or someone who's got something to do with the school, whether it's a volunteer or support staff in some capacity, besides the teachings for them. I've noticed that in some of the schools that are the ones that I consider, if you like, the best schools. And what I mean by that is the ones that I would sharpen my elbows and get other parents out the way to get my children into, and all that sort of stuff. It's the fact that you've seen something that it's basically changed your trajectory of life really because you're going into an amazing profession. What is it about Wray Common? What is it about, and you might associate this back to math, but also just more generally, what is it about the school that you decided, "Yeah, this is for me. I'm going to commit time to become a teacher?"

Felix Savedra

I would say we definitely have a child first approach. So by that I mean every decision we make, everything we do is always is that the best for the children? So child first approach, definitely. And there's definitely, whenever I go to other schools, you really see there's a buzz at Wray Common. There's so much talk, there's so much engagement going on, so much enthusiasm. The learning, if you walk into a maths lesson or any lesson, it's very rarely everyone's quiet with their heads down. It's lots of collaborative learning. Everyone's really, really enjoying their learning. So I would say those are the main key standouts for me.

Adam Gifford

And is that something that you've found has grown alongside and you've seen the benefits of? I guess when it first happens there's that general buzz, but then you start to see the actual impact of that. And you're not suggesting this for a second that it's just like it's a nice thing to have, but actually that you're seeing tangible outcomes based off that approach.

Felix Savedra

Yes. So attainment's pretty strong at Wray Common. So there's probably lots of reasons why attainment's strong, but I would definitely say good engagement definitely has a strong relationship with strong outcomes and attainment. So I think children enjoy their learning and we do pupil voice and child surveys that shows children enjoy their learning. And there is strong attainment. So I think there is a correlation there.

Robin Potter

And so tell me, Felix, when you started as the TA, Wray Common was already using Maths No problem?

Felix Savedra

So it was being implemented that very year, I believe. So, yeah. We've been using it for about eight or nine years ago, we started using it.

Robin Potter

And so you've known nothing different, is that kind of-

Felix Savedra

So I've seen in other schemes, and other schools, and other approaches, and I've done placements here or there. But my full-time, actual teaching, I've done no other approach. No. But I absolutely love Maths No Problem. I'm a big supporter for that.

Adam Gifford

Felix, you've gone from teaching assistant, then to teacher. And I think I've got this right, but you'll be able to correct me if I'm wrong. You've been teaching for six years and you are Maths Lead for two. So if my maths is half decent, that's a pretty quick trajectory into the realms of Maths Lead. What is it that allowed you to do that and what would you say along the path to allow you to do the job well? What are some of the things that have happened at the school that have got you to where you are now?

Felix Savedra

Yeah, great question. So in between that, I was also a PE Lead as well. So my leadership journey started with PE. And I liked to play lots of sports, watch lots of sports. I was very confident teaching PE as well. So I was PE Lead for two or three years. I always absolutely loved teaching maths. We had a very knowledgeable and amazing Maths Lead, and she was moving on. I felt like I wanted to go for the position, but I equally felt under qualified as well. But I did a leadership course called Shine, which totally helped me and supports me with the leadership side of the role. So I went for it. I felt like I was quite knowledgeable. I felt like I had a passion for the subject and I felt like I had some leadership skills, but I definitely did feel under qualified. But I guess when you start a new role, you always do feel slightly under qualified, but now I'm two years in. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means, but I definitely do feel much better than when I started. Yeah.

Robin Potter

And so is there anything that you feel is particularly important? I don't know what your turnover is in terms of your teachers. But you have a new teacher come on board, what's the first thing you'll do in terms of maths to get them up to speed and knowledgeable about, now maybe they're learning Maths No Problem for the first time?

Felix Savedra

Yeah, great question. So if there's a new staff, we have an induction day where myself as the Maths Lead will deliver an in-house, our approach to maths at Wray Common and share that with them. But also depending on funding and how many new staff we have, we also send them on the three-day Maths No Problem, CPD. And we sent two teachers this year. One was a bit sceptical about Maths No Problem and one was a bit knowledgeable about it. And my God, both of them returned so immersed, so buzzing to teach Maths No Problem. And the person that was sceptical is now the biggest advocate. They then deliver insight and training on what they've learned and it has impacted their practise and teaching, which is great.

Robin Potter

Obviously, they come in, they're feeling more confident, they take the three-day course, they're pumped, they're ready to go. And are you feeling more confident to set them loose in the classroom after this three days? Or do you think, "Okay, hold on. Just one step at a time." It's still...

Felix Savedra

I guess you kind of have to, don't you? I think you've got all this learning that you learn you want to try out. I'm not going to say they're going to come back and teach a 10 out of 10 Maths No Problem lesson every single time, but some days it's going to go really well. Some days it won't. But they're going to learn from the mistakes and learn from what goes really, really well and adapt their teaching as it went.

Andy Psarianos

So what are some of the mindsets and things that they come in with? We're talking about this one person in particular, but in general, when a new teacher comes into your school and you say, "Oh, we do this at our school." What are some of the things that maybe they're coming in preconceived ideas or whatever they're coming in that-

Felix Savedra

There's a few. Some are the layouts of the books. So some people come in, we have to teach this method. This is the only method we can do. It's the target method. And I know Maths No Problem has very clear, high ceiling, low floor. So we have to explain, "No, there are lots of methods and some children would choose this method. Some children would choose this method. And I know the book scaffolds certain methods, but if some children can't access that method, you are allowed to make your own adaptions. It's not just blindly following Maths No Problem." Which is what some people think they have to when they come in. And I guess one person was a bit sceptical this year, I think he was a bit worried that there was the balance of conceptual and the procedural understanding. Is it too much perceptual? Is it too much a procedural? So getting that balance of both going deep, but also learning what you have to do. So I say they're probably the main two, but people are normally very quickly to come on board.

So yeah, we've got three strands, so I'll quickly go... We've got our core lessons, we've got our fluency, and gap plugging sessions. And then we've got our intervention. So our core lesson. So we will normally start our lesson with either a flashback or fluency starter, and then we will follow the Maths No Problem structure. So we'll have the explorer task where we pose a problem, have lots of resources, lots of pair talk, and they go off, and they explore a problem with multiple methods. And then we might stop them, what do you think about this? What do you think of this? And carry on going again. Lots of resources, lots of talking. And then we'll bring all the children back. We'll have a class discussion, bounce off lots of ideas, go through lots of methods. And then what we've actually added an extra step, what we do as well, it is very similar to the guided practise.

We call it a hinge question where we will ask a question and children have whiteboards. It's often multiple choice and it's linked to the explorer task. We read the question, do you think it's this, this, this, this? And children write an answer on the board. And then that kind of helps you where does my lesson need to go? Do I need to go onto the guided practise? Do all children need to go onto the guided practise? Does everyone go onto the guided practise, but those three stay with me? Or do I need to do more discussion? So it helps your lesson progress with all children rather than leaving some behind.

So added that step in. And then we go onto the guided practise, which is a bit like the hinge question because you can use that to gauge where children are at. And then we would then go onto the independent bookwork. And then we have our mastery challenge as well at the end of the lesson. But I can confidently say there is challenge throughout the lesson. It's not just we wait for the challenge to come at the end of the lesson. So I guess the only bit we come away from that I would like to do more research and see more is the journaling. We don't really do that so much at Wray Common, but all the other aspects of the Maths No Problem lesson are all there.

Andy Psarianos

You said that sometimes just before the guided practise you'll identify that some children maybe are not ready to go on to the guided practise. What happens then with that group of children?

Felix Savedra

So you might say, "Everyone else goes to the guided practise. You four, five children, you stay with me, we'll go do the guided practise together." It depends on how long. If it's half the class, I've got the hinge question wrong. You're like, "Right. Well, my modelling, my explanation clearly wasn't strong enough. I need to do another example." I'd much rather you don't get onto the independent application part of the lesson, but you do far more modelling, far more whole class discussions. And people are more secure than people get it wrong. Because I know Maths No Problem, they schedule, they plan white space, blank space lessons. So there's not enough lessons to cover the whole calendar year. So you can add in consolidation lessons if you don't get a chance to get onto the book that lesson. It doesn't happen often, but for example, when you're doing further multiplication or division, those more tricky units is where you see, you're like, "Your not with me here, you haven't got the times table, so your working memory is being flooded."

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Multiplication is always, that's that transition. That's one where I think you can't rush multiplication or multiplicative reasoning. Just that idea of going from additive structures to... A lot of times people feel pressured, like they feel, "Oh, we got to move on, we got to get to this next lesson. We got to..." And I think it's really key that sometimes you really got to slow down and just make sure, and go deep, and make sure that those concepts are embedded. I know that obviously there's also a push with tables, and multiplication tables, and the year four tests, and all that kind of stuff. But the reality is, my own personal belief is that the multiplicative structures are the challenge, right? It's understanding that transition from additive thinking to multiplicative thinking is really difficult for children, many children. We tend to focus on whether or not they remember the tables, but that can be done in a very rote fashion. It might not necessarily have any meeting, but slowing down at that key transition stage is super important. Adam, I don't know what you think about that, but...

Adam Gifford

No, same thing. I was doing some training last week and just thinking about situations that a particular question, I can't remember the exact question, but the short of it was, it was a division question in year three. And the structure, it was a problem about music lesson and children going into classrooms. Instead of teaching the inverse, basically understanding that they could read the equation, but what a child may have done reasonably is add the three lots of the classroom. So there's 15 children in each of these classrooms. You add them up. What we want to make sure of is that they can then link that to multiplication. If we learn multiplication facts and we just learn them on their own, and the important part is the right response in response to the question. So I don't know, two times four, the right response is eight without any understanding, then those types of questions, like problems and situations that I've just talked about have the potential to become problematic if the child doesn't realise I can use this, I can use this structure to answer more efficiently.

And I think that there is a danger of it getting lost, of the structure getting lost. The ability to read and understand multiplication and division, and to be able to relate it to situations. If we just concentrate on a high degree of just the right response in a very rapid fashion that the actual application and being able to reason using those structures becomes more difficult. And I think too, there's a possible danger of a very rapid response given the impression that there's a deep understanding of multiplication. And I would argue that they're very different practises or they have the potential to be very different practises.

Robin Potter

I think we need to wrap it up, but I'd like to ask Felix... Felix, maybe you could give us one takeaway you've had from your maths journey? From being a TA to a Maths Lead, what's one takeaway that our audience could learn a valuable lesson from you about?

Felix Savedra

I think the power of children enjoying learning and feeling successful. I've had so many children who have come to me who think they're bad at math. So when they think they're bad at maths, they don't give things a go. They don't talk to their learning partner, they don't gather resources. They kind of just wait for the answer to appear on the board and try and hide behind somebody. But if you make children feel successful through praise, through pitching the learning at the right level, the progress that they can achieve is amazing. So yeah, I think definitely making children feel successful and enjoy maths.

Robin Potter

That's perfect. That's a perfect way to end too. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Felix Savedra

You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on School of School Podcast