Episode 184: Staff teamwork, changed attitudes, mindset shifts — this school’s success is PHENOMENAL

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School podcast.

Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Adam Gifford

It's time for another School of School podcast, and the gang is assembled. And we've got a special guest, but before we get to our special guest, Robin and Andy, I'm going to say good afternoon, because that's right where I am. So, I think it's good morning to you guys.

Robin Potter

It is.

Andy Psarianos

It is.

Robin Potter

Bright and early. Good morning.

Andy Psarianos

Someone said, "Hey, let's do a really early podcast!" Wonder who that was.

Adam Gifford

Andy was thrilled, so he leapt out of bed, well ahead of his alarm, because we're joined by guest, Craig Robinson.

Craig, you're not unfamiliar to Maths No Problem, you've spoken at our conferences before, but I think of most importance, you're a really key member of your wonderful school up in the northeast, up at Kingsley School.

Would you mind just introducing yourself and telling our listeners a little bit about you if they haven't met you, they don't know about you?

Craig Robinson

Yes. I'm Craig Robinson. I work at Kingsley Primary School in Hartlepool in the northeast of England. We've been working with Maths No Problem since 2017. I'm the Assistant Head there, and Maths lead, and we've just been absolutely blown away by our journey unexpectedly, and it just keeps on taking us in different directions, which is so exciting all the time.

But it's having such an impact on our school, it really is a revolutionary part of our journey and it's going to continue, hopefully.

Robin Potter

Okay. I'm going to bite because that's just too great-

Andy Psarianos

Because that's what you like to do?

Robin Potter

Yes. It's too good of an intro to not then come up with another question, which is, okay, why has it been so impactful in your school? What's happened?

Craig Robinson

It's a really good question.

From the start, it was just something that inspired me. It was a series of steps of seeing inspiring people such as Ban Har, et cetera, at the start. I went to the summer conference one year, this was pre-having any Maths No Problem in Kingsley, and it just completely took over in terms of the... I already had the mastery approach in school and we made small steps, thought they were big at the time, but in comparison to what's happened since 2017, they were relatively small.

But it made so much sense and it was one of them moments where you think, "Well, why haven't we done this before?" type thing. And then from there, it was just bringing in allies from school, really, so it was more of a team approach. And then convincing people, because obviously there's some challenges isn't there in terms of capital at the start, the huge differences in the way of teaching compared to what the way that we used to teach, and all that needed very careful of planning to convince people.

And since then, it's just grew at such a high rate in terms of the effect it's having on the learning, the main thing, but that's the outcome. There's lots of little subcategories to that in terms of the professional development of the teachers, the buzz of maths around school, and then more recently the impact it's having on the other curriculum areas.

For example, our school development target, it has been for the last couple of years, is to use the developments in maths in terms of mastery and apply it to different subject areas, and that's one of our school targets. So that just summarises the impact it's had over the past almost eight or nine years.

Andy Psarianos

So what are some of the secret ingredients? I think for a lot of people it'd be like, well, it's just a subject, it's just you're teaching maths. It's like, "Well, you're going to show the child..." Obviously this is not how it works, but most people, especially non-teachers, when they think about it, would think, "Well, you're just teaching a subject. You're going to show kids how to do stuff," because they think teacher's going to be doing this. "All right, children, here's what we do. Now you try it." Thinking that that's largely how people teach, talking about non-teachers here.

And then they say, well, if you're teaching, let's say something else, you're just going to do the same thing, you're going to say, "Okay, repeat after me." Or, "Look at what I'm doing. This is how..." What is it about Maths No Problem? What's that secret ingredient that moves into other subject areas?

Craig Robinson

It's the fact that it's an approach. I think that's the main thing, it's the approach to teaching and learning rather than... I think people looking from the outside and not knowing much about it, you hear of words like textbook and get drawn into that textbook workbook type thing, but that's just a small part of it, it's actually the teaching and learning approach.

So going back to pre-mastery in 2014, it was like we taught, same as many schools around the whole country, stand at the front, the teacher tells the kids, this is the mainly procedural teaching, isn't it? "Kids, listen. Have you got all the steps? I'll go and repeat what I've just done."

And over the years we started making that difference at the start in terms of getting the exploration and the play in there. But Maths No problem just accelerated that and took us to levels that we didn't even know existed.

So, for example is a good way of summarising it, really. We have external teachers coming in, so I work for the maths hub, etc. To do the continuity group, the fire trade continuity group. So we have that group coming in to observe our maths lessons to see it. We've obviously had an open days recently as well with Maths No Problem. And I always get the visitors to do a feedback form afterwards. And there was one, we did a lesson in a year six lesson where the kids had one little task that was adapted from Maths No Problem, and it was to do with place value, and the teacher just orchestrated the conversation having just put the task up on the board, and the kids just talked about the maths for 40 minutes. And the observers afterwards...

The teacher, obviously, she knew when to come in with the right questioning, she knew when to pause them, key questions, or get the certain kids to sit next to each other. All that little tweaks that are well planned beforehand. But the adults afterwards said, "We can't believe that your kids could talk in that level of depth for 40 minutes. Our kids would have given up after five."

And I think that summarises the difference between where we've come and where we are now. And that's what we're trying to get in other subjects as well, to go back to your question, and that's what we're trying to create in other subjects, because we know the kids have got that skill, and that resilience, and that perseverance and that engagement with the tasks in maths. We want it to happen in history, geography, English as well.

Andy Psarianos

And we use terminology like depth, and that can be interpreted in so many ways, but what you just described, effectively, that's the result of depth. That's like when children are able to go deep into something, they can talk about it for a long time, they can think about it for a long time. They're not just like saying, "Right, we worked out what the answer is now. There's nothing else to do." It is being able to understand that that's just the beginning.

The answer is just the beginning. It's not even the beginning, and it doesn't even need to be the end, and you don't even need to get the right answer sometimes. You talk about something for a long time and never get to the answer. And when we talk about depth, that's what we're talking about. There's other terms we use a lot in education like fluency and that one, that's one of the most misinterpreted, I think, bits of terminology that we use. But these things translate to all subject areas.

So what you're describing, I've heard this several times now, actually I've heard it many times, and it is quite fascinating. I think that that's one of the things that people have to recognise regardless of the subject that you're teaching, there's really three things, if you can hit those three things.

Number one is what do you need to do in your teaching to allow for this magical stuff that we're talking about to happen? And that's all about professional development. It's all about giving teachers the opportunity to spend time to reflect on their lessons, reflect on their peers' lessons, look around, have people come into the lesson and watch the children. Don't watch the teacher, watch the children. Your eyes open up you go...

Because you have these insights where you're standing there and you're going, "Oh, I really wish the teacher didn't interrupt them there because they were just onto something." And that's when you realise, hey, actually you know what? You don't have to dominate every minute of the classroom. Sometimes you just need to sit back and let the children get on with it.

Craig Robinson

Definitely.

Andy Psarianos

You only get those things through observation and professional development. You need the tools to teach. You need the lessons, you need all the things that come with good lessons, the coherence of a programme like repeating, coming back to the subjects at the right time, at the right depth, at the right level, you need that.

And the third thing, and you've described them all so well, is that supportive network. You need to have everybody on board. Everybody's like, "Okay, this is working. Let's carry on. Let's work together." What does that look like in your school, that team, the internal support system in your school? What does that look like?

Craig Robinson

So the internal support system we've got, I think it's probably worth mentioning at this point as well, Andy, that it's not without its hardships across the years. When this approach was first started to implement this, there was a lot of resistance from teachers, because it was such a huge change in the way that they were teaching that there was... And that's why it was important initially. And I think one of the biggest tips I do give to schools thinking about going with Maths No Problem is that make sure you've got your team approach to it. You need teachers that you've it out with and that are on your side. You will have resistance of certain teachers.

So in terms of the support network, we've obviously got, I didn't mention the staff, but we've got, for those who don't know, we've got quite a big staff in comparison to most schools, because we've got quite a lot of SEND children. So there's really the teaching PD, and the TA PD, and we've got a staff of around a hundred in terms of teaching and PAs. So it's quite a big job to do. It's changed a lot the way that we do it over the years, we...

Again, going back to pre Maths No Problem. We were very much in the judgmental lesson-observation type stage that's even changed. So it's not just the mastery approach and everything we described so far, it's the leadership structure around it as well, it's changed because of it, and as a result we've gone away from lesson observations, and more into lesson reviews. And we're moving towards lesson study since I've been networking with quite a lot of the credited schools.

And teachers are now welcoming rather than fearful of the support. And I do lead formal sessions still, in terms of everyone in the hall type thing, "These are targets for this year." We're going to work on journaling for example, set in set tasks between the two over the terms, etc. But then most of the PD happens naturally now, the majority of it, in terms of the teachers talking about the maths in the PPA, supporting each other, you can quite often walk... Quite a lot of the classes teach maths second lesson after break. So you could either walk through just after that lesson, just before lunchtime, you can hear the teachers comparing their experiences that they've just had in their lesson, how's that going to impact on tomorrow? That sort of thing.

And because the direction of travel in terms of their curriculum and their confidence in the approach is so established now, then the little conversations that would possibly have taken a lot longer on may never have happened in the past. It's so key and it just accelerates that learning as an outcome.

So the biggest thing recently is the attitude towards PD. I think from the teaching staff, and the TAs, and the fact that they value it, and it's continuous, and they probably don't even realise that a lot of the conversations they have is having such an impact that it does. I hope that answers your question.

Adam Gifford

Can I just jump in? There's one more thing, Craig. I was fortunate, I came up to your school and had lunch with yourself, a group of children, your head teacher, other members of staff.

And what I observed was, first of all, when people talked about maths, there was an utter authenticity to it, that enthusiasm, the passion, all those things that children were talking to the senior leadership and you guys and all really enthused about it. And there was no way, or it was impossible, not to come to the conclusion that everyone was fully invested and right into it. It was just purely authentic. And I thought that was amazing, because when you've got children talking about a subject alongside senior leaders, and doing so with not just enthusiasm, but having a general conversation about it.

And I think that even though that might sound like it's happening all the time in schools, I can tell you now not It really isn't. Children don't tend to talk about their subjects outside of what they're learning in that lesson like that. And I just... Sitting back and observing that it was just you realise then that there's no way anyone coming into it, you just enveloped into the fold that would suggest that it just goes through everywhere in your school, which is, I think it's a real testament to the leadership, particularly, to be able to be that committed, passionate, those sorts of things.

And then just like you were saying, the organic nature of, I don't know, watching each other, having those conversations. It's commonplace, clearly commonplace between staff but also between staff and children outside of maths lessons. That's remarkable.

Craig Robinson

The other thing that has helped is obviously because people have changed their attitude to other adults being in the class, it then allows people like myself, or other teachers, to informally go in.

Because when you're in the heat of teaching, you can't see yourself from the outside. So other people's views on it are really, really important. But in the past we've had such a block against that, and such a fear. It was never natural when people were in the classroom anyway, because they didn't teach naturally. That in the past, people taught, taught the way they thought what that person wanted to see if that makes sense, rather than...

Adam Gifford

It was a performance.

Andy Psarianos

It's exactly what it's like.

Craig Robinson

Whereas now this is obviously still an element of that person's there, but teachers are much more natural when you're in there, which means that you can have genuine points to share with other staff, and points that you can talk about developing as well. So it really has happened really fast, I would say, since that mindset of the teaching staff changed as well along the way.

And obviously as we keep coming back to that outcome of the learning, but all of this stuff has that impact on what you were saying, Adam, when you saw were children talking about maths, because obviously when the teachers believe, it comes across in the kids, doesn't it?

Andy Psarianos

And I think you can't underestimate how important that enthusiasm and that healthy environment, how much of an impact that has on the well-being of everybody in the school, including especially maybe even the teachers, but also the pupils, the students, the children.

When there's that whole friendly, collaborative environment, and everybody is invested in learning, and talking about subjects, and it's not just factory work almost, because the school can almost be like a factory sometimes where you just show up, and you have to do this, and you watch the clock all day. "Is it almost three o'clock?" It's just the well-being of people the happy to be there and that makes all the difference.

Robin Potter

And I think you touched on, that's a key word I would say, Andy, is collaboration. It sounds like, Craig, once people, once teachers actually got on board, that it becomes a much more collaborative environment for them to be working in and that spills over with the students.

And obviously if they can be talking amongst themselves for 40 minutes and working on a problem, that collaboration is obviously being very effective.

Craig Robinson

And going back to that other thing, just something that's just popped to my head when you were talking, Robin, going back to that lesson again, the reason they couldn't talk for that love about the maths is because of the kids' mindset as well. We've done a lot of work on growth mindset and the way that the teachers communicate with the children.

So things like little cues, we found that if we said, "Are you sure?" "Are you sure" to the kids when you responding to if they've asked you, "How have I done?" "Are you sure about that one?" That always meant that they were wrong, so you might as well have just told them that you're wrong. So we just started, we just made a little tweak to say, ask that question when they're right as well, so, "Are you sure that's right?"

And then they had to go back and check and going through that process again and then making sure and when they've got that concrete view that they were right, it was actually more secure and more mastered anyway in the first place. So just little things like that was... And the kids are now happy that we celebrate mistakes. We've done a lot of work on the James Nottingham with the learning pit, and we've used that analogy. We don't use it so much anymore, because they were at a stage now where they're quite comfortable making mistakes and celebrating them.

But we went through a phase where we would say, "Where are you? Are you still falling into the pit? Are you at the bottom of the pit climbing back out?" And then in that lesson that you were talking about there, Robin, as well, the other adults commented on how we didn't settle when they'd got out the pits, or when some kids thought they were out, the teacher would ask another problem to throw them back in again. "Have you thought about this?" And then just walk away and leave them with that thought.

That's quite a good strategy when you've got kids who grasp it quite quickly, and think that they've got it, and they've succeeded. But again, our kids are so used to that as well that they don't take it in a negative way, it's quite dangerous if they haven't got that kind of mindset, but they'll go away and persevere and see if they can conquer that challenge as well.

So growth mindset is a massive part of it as well, but it's inbuilt into Maths No Problem as well along the way, isn't it, in terms of the way that the variation in the questions and things, the kids are never repeating the same thing either. The design of the questions in Maths No Problem keeps them thinking all of the time so they're having to display and demonstrate that growth mindset all the time.

Andy Psarianos

Looking forward, what's in the picture for you guys over the next few years? Where do you go from now?

Craig Robinson

Most of the projects that we're working on now, we've come from the networking with the accredited schools. So one, when we visited Three Bridges last autumn, I think it was, for the first time, I got a connection with David there and he's put us in with... And Jeremy actually into contact with their EYFS team, because we're working on rewriting our nursery curriculum from the foundations curriculum and reception. So that's one of the projects we're working on now at the moment, is rewriting that nursery curriculum.

And the second thing that's really new is I got in contact with Katie from Sandringham as well, and she's been working with me about lesson study. So I was quite careful in the way that I used the lesson review before, because we've started moving away from lesson observations, but last year it was more like a lesson review scheme. But since speaking to Katie, it definitely wasn't lesson study. So Katie's... We've had our first online meeting with her last term, and I'm going to meet again with her this term with a view of visiting her, and observing some lesson study at her school going forward. So that that's the two big projects there that...

Robin Potter

You're learning from the pros. You're learning from the pros for sure.

Craig Robinson

That's the other big message from it, isn't it? That everyone, it's not just the credit school community, it's the Maths No Problem community, isn't it? That everyone's been through at different stages, and different contexts to the schools, and just offering them conversations has such a massive impact on your direction and the speed you go at as well, because you can use that, you can gather all that knowledge in and then apply it to your own school.

Robin Potter

But we've only touched, we scratched the surface here, Craig, because you've talked about you have a large population of pupils. There's so many things we could continue to talk to you about, so we'd like to have you come back. Would that be possible?

Craig Robinson

Yes, certainly.

Robin Potter

Okay, fantastic. That'd be great. So thanks so much for coming on our podcast today.

Craig Robinson

Thank you for inviting me.

Robin Potter

We've learned lots.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining on School of School Podcast.