Episode 185: How has this School’s maths attainment consistently increased over 8 years?

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is The School of School podcast.

Welcome to The School of School podcast.

Welcome back, everyone, to another super exciting episode of The School of School podcast. We got Felix Savedra here from Wray Common with us, and of course Robin and Adam are here as per normal. Robin and Adam, why don't you guys just say hi? I know you guys are dying to just jump in and say something.

Adam Gifford

Hi.

Robin Potter

We are. Hi. Yes. We've been dying to say hi. And hi, Felix.

Felix Savedra

Hello.

Andy Psarianos

And Felix, look, come on, for our listeners, who are you? What do you do? What makes you so passionate about mathematics? Why are you on this podcast?

Felix Savedra

So yeah, my name is Felix. I am a year three teacher and a maths lead at Wray Common School. I absolutely adore teaching primary school children, and I'm particularly passionate about teaching maths. I just love helping children make progress and feel successful and enjoy learning.

Andy Psarianos

So Felix, I'd be really interested, I think we'd all be really be interested in hearing about what made you guys choose Maths -- No Problem!, and why? When you were around looking at different possible options for mathematics for your school, what was appealing about Maths -- No Problem!?

Felix Savedra

Yes. So Maths -- No Problem! has been at our school for quite a long time now, so about seven or eight years. So I wasn't the actual maths lead when we enrolled it, but I was part of the school.

And I think what first caught our eye was the real strong attainment that Singapore was achieving. So we kind of thought, "Right, what are they doing over there that's so successful?" The data and the chart showed that their attainment was way higher than us in the UK, so that really caught our attention.

And another thing we really, really liked about it was the progression of knowledge and skills. The year one to year two to year three curriculum really build on nicely to each other. So yeah, not all children progress the same, but as there is a great progression of knowledge and skills, there shouldn't be too many gaps, because what you learn about in year one will help you with year two. For example, when the place value in year one follows on in year two, it's a good progression.

Also, the consistency that the scheme offers. So the calculation policy, the language, how maths is being taught, the structure. So if you went into a maths lesson at Wray Common eight years ago, each lesson will look really, really different. They're doing it like that, they're doing it like that. But now the consistency is there and the layout and the pedagogy that underpins the Maths -- No Problem! lesson is really, really strong. So it's good that it's being taught consistently, and children, no one explore a task is, I think children like consistency.

And the other thing that we really, really like is the high ceiling, low floor. So your lower-attaining children can access the lesson, but I think Maths -- No Problem! is a really, really high-pitched curriculum and really does challenge children, which is great.

And there's the final reason that the ease of the resources, it's all there. So the explore task, the guided practise, the independent books, we don't follow the scheme blindly, and we adapt it to the best needs of our children, but teachers are very, very busy and I think they like the fact that planning suggestions and resources are there for them.

So that's kind why we chose it. And when we enrolled it, it wasn't straightaway a success. And there was lots and lots of training, lots of CPD from Maths -- No Problem! and lots of kind of doing and reflecting. But I think we're in a really strong place with our curriculum now.

Andy Psarianos

And what was the catalyst? You said it wasn't easy at the beginning. Why didn't you abandon it? What made you keep going? And was there a point when there was an aha moment, a light came on and you said, "Hey, actually, you know what? This seems to be working for us"?

Felix Savedra

Yeah, I think we were realistic. So when we implemented it, we weren't expecting to see really, really consistent high-quality Maths -- No Problems! all the time. But what we were looking for is small successes. Well, you did that explore task really, really well today or that discussion went really, really well today, and sharing those small successes.

And over time, through lots and lots of feedback and support, the quality and standard of teaching definitely, definitely increased, which then now shows in our attainment. I think our attainment has consistently increased over the last eight years. We've never plateaued once, which I guess is pretty rare. I think your attainment can't just keep going up and up. At some point it's going to level up or dip, but for eight years we've consistently gone up, which is really special.

Andy Psarianos

That's amazing. That's almost unheard of.

Felix Savedra

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Wow. And what do you attribute that to? I mean, obviously Maths -- No Problem!, fine, but what about it? Why has that happened? What's happening with your teachers? Because it's a reflection of what your teachers are doing really, it's not the programme, right? The programme is a tool. So what's happening in your school that that attainment keeps... It's the mindset of the teachers or what?

Felix Savedra

Yeah, a great question. I think that all the teachers are really knowledgeable and they've bought into it and they feel passionate. No one's teaching the scheme because they have to, I think everyone likes teaching the scheme and enjoys teaching through that way. So yeah, I think I agree, it's going to be really hard to keep it going, but we're in a really strong place to be like that now.

Andy Psarianos

Well, maybe if you can keep it going, keep it going, right? You might say, "Well, hey, look, we're really good at teaching maths here at Wray Common. Let's ease up. Let's just let teachers do whatever they want." Why would you not do that? Or maybe you would.

Felix Savedra

I think the structure really, really helps teachers to plan. And I think children are so used to the structure that if there was a sudden change, maybe that would negatively impact them. But I definitely think it is the best approach for children. I think through lots of talking, lots of resources, lots of different methods, going really, really deep, mastery, I think that is the best way for children to learn maths.

And yes, sometimes you do a consolidation lesson, you might kind of go down this road. And our curriculum at Wray Common, we've got our core Maths -- No Problem! lessons, but we do also have other strands of our curriculum which we use to support children to make them successful. But our core lessons are our main part of that.

Andy Psarianos

So we had somebody else in an interview recently talking about substitute teachers coming in and the children guiding these teachers through the lessons like, "No, no. We're supposed to do this now." Right? "We're supposed to do it this way."

Felix Savedra

Yeah, I can imagine that definitely happening as well. Yeah, they're very used to that.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Yeah. But there's something to be said for that structure, that consistency throughout the school and throughout, yeah.

Adam Gifford

What I'm wondering is schools are dynamic places and I think you've said before that you don't have a massive turnover with your staff and that. What do you do to maintain it though? Because I appreciate you put things in, and even I've read you speak before about the importance of training and continuous CPD and all those sorts of things, but what do you do to maintain it?

You're the maths lead, standards have been set really high and they continue to improve. So what does it look like for you? What are the things that you are looking out for and what happens within the dynamic of your school that means that there's that sort of continuous cycle of improvement?

Felix Savedra

Yeah, yeah. Great question. So as well as kind of sending people on that external CPD, we also do run internal CPD. So myself or other teachers, we deliver maths insets, and they're based on either when we've gone in and seen lessons or we've discussed with myself and SLT, right? Oh, we think we can do adaptive teaching better, or we think we can do questioning a little better. Whatever sort of area we've identified as a slightly weaker area, we maybe do some training in that.

I think one of the best things that I do is team teaching. So teachers who have asked for support or are newer to teaching with me, they do some team teaching. So they get to see their class being taught by someone who feels confident with Maths -- No Problem! and has taught it lots of times, and they can see them teaching their own children in their class and they can jump in and join in within that lesson. So I think team teaching is really good. We do planning support.

So yeah, there's lots of things we do to support teachers to ensure that maths is not being ignored, because it's very easy. Because our maths attainment is higher than our reading, our writing. So whenever we write our school development plan, it's always like, "We need to do this with writing, we need to do this with reading." And sometimes maths gets forgotten about. But I guess it's my job to, "No, I want to do this with maths, I want to do this, I want to do this." And it's definitely about creating a supportive culture.

So if I go into a classroom, we don't want people to think, "Oh, he's coming to see if we're doing it properly." It's, "No, he's coming in here to support us." So I think that culture is really, really important too.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, it sounds massively important. And just one last question off the back of the role of the maths lead, how has it changed your teaching? So you taught for four years, then you get the response of maths lead, which by its very nature you have to think about the teaching and learning of mathematics more than you probably did as a classroom teacher. So how has that had an impact on your teaching? When you go into the class, what are some of the things that really jump out for you?

Felix Savedra

I definitely, my knowledge of the subject definitely through the training that I've been on has definitely grown, and that impacts my teaching through my language, my questioning. And definitely you can't say one thing and not do it yourself. So I think as a leader of change, if you implement something new, you definitely want to do it yourself.

So for example, we want to do pre-teaching, and it's something that is really, really impactful and I can't go to staff and say, "Right, we want you to do pre-teaching," but I don't do it myself. So any new ideas or approaches that I want the school to take, I almost have to be the front-runner, right? "I'm doing this, come and join me." Or, "I'm having lots of good impacts in my class doing this. If you do the same, you can have that really positive impact." So yeah, I think those things.

Robin Potter

You've probably answered that, but becoming a maths lead, how important do you think, and you mentioned training, how important do you think CPD is, continuing on into becoming the maths lead and then being this leader at your school, how significant is it?

Felix Savedra

As in CPD for me or CPD for the whole staff?

Robin Potter

Well, for you, and obviously it would impact your staff, but.

Felix Savedra

Yeah, definitely. So as I did mention before, when I first became the maths lead, I had imposter syndrome. I think, "Oh, I can't do this." So it was really, really helpful. So I've been on Maths -- No Problem! CPD, I've been on kind of leadership-specific CPD, which has really, really taught me how to lead for change and how to be a successful leader. I'm not saying I'm fully there yet, but I now feel far more confident and knowledgeable to support teachers, implement change, and improve the learning for children. So yeah, I strongly think CPD is important.

Adam Gifford

What are your next steps? So what happens now? Have you got things on the horizon that you think, "Oh, yep, this is definitely where we're heading, this is the thing that I've got my eyes on and coming into '24, '25, the new academic year, it's a new chance to improve on things again"?

Felix Savedra

Definitely. So as I mentioned before, I think times tables, we flagged through our year four times tables check that two consecutive years we've been below national average where our attainment is significantly above national average. So are we teaching times tables right? Are we doing enough times tables? Is the way we're teaching it right? So we definitely want to get into other schools who have stronger times table attainment and see what they're doing. So that's one of our steps.

And the other one is knowledge organisers. So for our curriculum subjects, we have knowledge organised where we have, "Right, key facts for each unit. You will know these facts. Here they are on a piece of paper. If you're ever stuck, here's that key learning."

As a whole school, we're looking at knowledge organisers, so I am quite interested to see what that would look like for maths. For example, if you had a time knowledge organiser here, "You need to know 60 seconds in a minute, duh-duh-duh. These are the key facts you need to know for this unit." And if you're ever stuck in a learning, right, you look at your knowledge organiser, "Right, that's that bit of information I need." So I'm interested in exploring that.

Robin Potter

All right. Well, Felix, so wonderful to have you on.

Felix Savedra

Thank you for having me.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on The School of School podcast.