Episode 191: Defining Mastery - What is it's meaning?

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School Podcast.

Welcome to the School of School Podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another episode of the School of School Podcast, just joined by Robin today and a guest, but Robin, first of all, how are you?

Robin Potter

Yeah, I'm very good. Thanks for introducing me. And I won't mention that Andy's not here. Oh, I just mentioned it.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, don't mention it at all. But we are very, very fortunate today that we have-

Robin Potter

Yes, we are.

Adam Gifford

... Sana Malik from St. Mary's School in Moss Side, Manchester, UK. Welcome, Sana. Tell us a little bit about yourself for those listeners who may not have met, heard, watched you speak before.

Sana Malik

I think you have very nicely introduced me, but yeah, my name is Sana Malik, and I am from St. Mary's Private School in Moss Side, Manchester. I have been teaching for nine years now. I am a year five teacher and a maths lead.

Adam Gifford

Cool, cool, cool, cool. Now, I've got what I think is a very difficult question to ask you actually.

Robin Potter

Is it a calculation?

Adam Gifford

No, no, it's harder than that. It's harder than any sort of calculation, in my mind anyway. I hear the word mastery used all the time now. People just drop it into conversation all the time. And when it's dropped into conversation, I often think to myself, "Well, whoever's used it has made an assumption that I know what mastery is or what someone else does." And now whenever that happens, I get a little bit curious, and I ask, "Well, what does mastery mean to you?" And people have got really, really different opinions.

I think we're just going to talk about mastery a little bit today and keen to listen to you talking about it because I think it is one of those things, and it happens a bit with many things in life in general, where people just assume that everyone just knows it and you can just talk about, "Oh, yeah. We use a mastery approach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's pretty straightforward. So away you go. You can mastery approach yourself to bits in the classroom. Thanks, you go for it." You know?

What does that even look like? What does that even mean?

Sana Malik

Mastery approach, I think first of all, of course mastery, so being a master of something. Mastery approach, of course, is having a deep understanding of a concept. So to facilitate that process, we have to provide them with the right model. We have to follow the right model in the schools. So we believe that first of all, every child can achieve, children coming from different attainment groups, different background, different needs, the belief that every child can achieve, keeping them in the same class, giving them the same experience, making sure that they have the deep understanding of what we are teaching them. So not moving too quickly to teaching them many, loads of things. It's more about teaching something properly. So not teaching a lot, but teaching better.

So having a deep understanding of a concept so they really understand, they can apply that whenever they see similar problems, similar methods, or similar scenarios where they can use those things that they've learned. Because they now have the deep understanding, they can apply it better.

So yes, of course to be successful in following a mastery approach, you've got to have certain elements in place. One of the very, very important point that I want to talk about is the coherence. It's like when you are teaching them in their journey, in their lesson experience, it has to be done in smaller steps, making sure they understand each step. Do not teach too much at the same time, making sure that you're providing the right scaffolding, they would understand step by step. You can see children making progress slowly, but making sure that they have their deep understanding, giving them the right models, giving them the right representations so they can see it, they can do it, they can reason, they can explain. They have the strong understanding, giving them the number sense. Do they understand their numbers? Do they understand place value? Have they tested out everything? Have they been given the vocabulary for them to be able to explain the stem sentences? They can explain their reason. Giving them opportunity to practise fluency, do they understand, and they can make connections.

So there's many things like coherence, smaller steps, representation structures, communication variation, showing them different ways, giving them chances through different styles, different methods, giving them opportunity to compare reason. Why is it similar, why is it different? Which one is helpful?

So all that facilitates that process. The key part is whole-class teaching, mixed abilities, every child can achieve, and having deep understanding rather than accelerating teaching a lot and making sure all is done. If it's not done properly, it's not going to be any use if you teach them in the coming years or coming topics. So that's the background and the model of mastery in maths.

Robin Potter

I'm thinking a couple of things here. One, you've been at the school for or you've been teaching for nine years, so you weren't always teaching mastery is my guess.

Sana Malik

Mm-hmm.

Robin Potter

You were teaching maths without mastery. And so the first question I would ask is how have you found that transition into teaching mastery has been accepted by students? But also, now I always go to the parents and I think about the parents and I think, are they excited to jump on board thinking, "Oh, my kid, my child is going to have this deep understanding of maths," or are they a bit like, "Ugh, my child is struggling with maths and this concept sounds far too beyond what they're able to do at this point in time"?

Sana Malik

Yeah, so I think in terms of comparing it from not having a mastery approach and having a mastery approach, it's like first of all, same, I think it's about the experience that you give to children. For example, if you are grouping them according to their attainments, so as I said, one of the main things I say that is to keep them in together, like in a mixed ability, so everybody can have the experience. So surely if you are not giving a child in experience, they will not have that opportunity so they will not have that light-bulb moment that we call, that, "Okay, I now understand it." If they've never been given that experience, they will never be able to pick or make that progress.

And of course you just, again, if you are accelerating your high-attainers, "Wow, you can do this. Now you can do a harder question. You can do this harder question," yes, you can get them to do loads of questions, they can apply many methods, but then again, it goes back to can they explain what they've done? Can they reason, "I'm using this approach because it's efficient," or, "I understand this method. This works. I can explain what that is."

Coming from, of course, as you were saying, their parents, I've had many parents because I have worked really closely with parents this year and parents say that they're far better than us because our methods are different. And they say, "No, don't do it this way, do it this way." And they explain it to us why their method is a better method or so they're teaching us. So many times parents have said, "They know more than us, they tell us, they teach us."

So this tells you, this actually is a good example of when you follow a mastery approach, a child will be able to explain what they're doing, not just tell you, "This is a method," like, "okay, I don't understand." They'll be able to explain it because you have given them a chance in their classroom environment or experience for them to explain and to reason, to compare, to see their partners. So then they will be able to see their parents' method, which my school and my parents in my school, they say, "We were taught in a different way. This is my method." And they say that, "This is the right method," but they then make a connection, "oh, I get you. You are doing this, but we do that, but I can see." So then they can compare it rather than switching off completely from...

So I always encourage parents to them, "Ask them. How is my method different to yours?" And they're very used to of looking at different approaches in the class because they're not just taught one method, they explore many, so they will be able to make that connection.

So when you give them the right approach, and if you follow the mastery curriculum, mastery approach to your curriculum, you will give them the opportunities to really understand and deepen the understanding by using, of course, as I said, representation models, giving them chances to explain, giving them all the right experience and structure. Then the more you do it, the better they will get into explaining it.

So I believe this approach will help them make those connections and explain their reasons better. And of course, again, as I come back to the fact that if you're not giving those questions to your lower-attainers, you're not giving them the experience. So that's not... It's high expectations from that child. You are already assuming that the child cannot do it, which is completely against the mastery curriculum. The child can do it. Maybe they're not at that point in their journey, but with that experience, somehow, somewhere they will click, they will make that connection, the light-bulb moment will come at some point. But if they don't have that, that will never come because they're always given easier questions. They're always given the support from a teacher. Teachers are doing that, not doing it, but doing it with them. They're stepping back, let them explore, see what they're doing, let them make mistake, can't explain.

Things like, even if you unpick a misconception and ask them to, okay, why the child has made that mistake, I always say to my teachers, "Don't just say, 'Okay, this is a common misconception,' and then they can easily tell you, 'okay, this is you're wrong because that child didn't do it.'" But the important point is before we see what is wrong with that method, try and see why that child has made that mistake. Why is it a common misconception? Why many children do it? What do they forget or what is that easy thing for them to miss?

So all these opportunities and discussion, explanation are very important for the whole class, not just for your one group or this group or that group. Once you do this, you're failing on the saying that... I feel that that thing about high expectations from all, that just drops then. You're just expecting them to really make that progress, "But these can't, so we'll just give them easy work." It's for everyone. So you need to give that experience to everyone, and of course they will get it, but you, as a teacher will know, "This is really good for this child, this lesson, this child can do this as well." You know it. But for a child, everybody see it that we all can do it.

Adam Gifford

I think the other thing too to keep in mind, because what you've described is what I would just consider good teaching, if we just said, "Well, what do you, as a parent, what do you expect for your children?" You would, I think, I don't know, maybe towards the top of the list, you'd say, "I want them to, at the very least, to be given a chance, not be written off before they even start."

Sana Malik

Yeah, exactly.

Adam Gifford

And I think that the other thing that people need to remember is mastery and the mastery approach is not new. You could argue that many of the Greeks were forming the basis of a mastery approach. Then in the '50s, it was happening a lot with Educationalist, Benjamin Bloom, John Dewey, but the expectation was the same. It was trying to elicit that information, like, "I think that you can get there. I'm just going to ask the right questions to get you to think about it." And I think that's a big shift is that we've seen that, then we go to a place where knowledge was king because we didn't have the internet. So when I was growing up, the internet didn't exist. So it was really about remembering stuff. But we realise now that, in part, is redundant because my phone can answer almost everything. So now it's about, how do I go about it?

So I just think that one of the biggest shifts is the success criteria moving just from the right answer, which it was for a long time. And I remember getting told by so many senior teachers when I was training to be a teacher or when I was new as teacher, "It doesn't matter how they get the answer. As long as they get the answer, it doesn't matter." And I thought... But I would argue that does a lot of children a disservice because if I'm not looking at how they're getting it, then I could leave them, I could be a 49-year-old bloke with counters in my pockets trying to work out the change when I buy a bag of crisps.

Sana Malik

That's right.

Adam Gifford

And that's really sad and socially isolating. So I think that we are more sophisticated than that, and I think that that's a massive part of it is that I hope people pick up on the fact that now actually, yeah, I can add two plus two, but there's more to it than that. What else can you do with two plus two? What does it look like? What is it the basis of? What da, da, da, da, da, da?

Sana Malik

Yeah. So, so much you can do.

Adam Gifford

And that is a massive shift and it's a huge shift as a teacher. I don't know if you've experienced that, but it's a big shift.

Sana Malik

Definitely, definitely. And of course, things like if a child has said, "Two plus two is five," rather than saying, "No, it's not. It's wrong," getting them to, "Okay, can you show me how? Can you make a picture to show me?" And you will see when they're explaining to you, the majority of the time, they say, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, it's actually four." So you've not told them it's wrong. You've just asked them to explain, and you are very like you want to know how did they get that? So in that journey, they will be able to make that connection themselves. So you can't say, "It's right," you can't say, "it's wrong." "You tell me. Show me. you satisfy how is it..." Yeah.

Adam Gifford

I think that's a really lovely example. I think it's a perfect example because in the old days, the old days, that's the wrong way of doing it, I think that what was sort of prevalent in teaching was if someone says, "Two plus two is five," as a teacher, it was very simple. I could just tell them, "No, it's not. It's four," and that's it. Done. I've done my job. They know it. Everyone's happy, the parents are thrilled. My child knows two plus two is four. They're not saying "five" anymore. This is great. The world's a happy place to live in. But I think that simple question of, "Prove it, prove that two and two is four. I'll leave you to it." Or five. "I'll leave you to it and you tell me when you're ready to show me."

Sana Malik

Yeah, exactly.

Adam Gifford

It seems like such a subtle shift, but the difference it will make for that child is massive.

Sana Malik

Yeah. So don't tell them they're wrong. Let them figure out where they are making that mistake.

Robin Potter

So one other thing, and Adam, you just mentioned that mastery has actually been around for a long time, but it seems to be a trendy word, as you mentioned people now dropping it into conversations. So then my question is, but is all mastery created equal? So what's one person's interpretation of mastery versus someone else's and-

Adam Gifford

Well, I think and even more than that, Robin, for some people, the word mastery doesn't even come into it. It's just good teaching. So if you just said, "Look, this is good maths teaching, this is the way that I go about it. We base it on a problem. It's a problem-solving approach. And these are the supports that are put in place, and these are the elements of my class and my lesson structure, and this is how I teach maths." The word mastery, I think, sometimes muddies the waters. I think that if you bend the word mastery-

Sana Malik

It's good teaching.

Adam Gifford

... but just said, "Right. Here's what we expect from teachers. First of all, we expect that they have the same expectation that all children can succeed. They might do it at a different pace. They might reach that success at different times and they might need different support along the way, but my starting point is I believe that everyone can succeed," you don't need mastery. That's just like a human being expectation, right?

Then you think, "Right. Well, what's the best way about going about it? What does research tell us? How can I support a child to learn to add? What does research tell us?" And then we just go and we say, "All right. Well, we do this, this, and this. What about this situation? What about how do we start it off? Well, why don't we start everything with a problem? And that does this. It allows us to listen to this. It allows us to do that. Da, da, da, da, da."

For me, I just wonder if it reaches a stage where it's kind of like the word itself, as it's so open to interpretation, and when I hear teachers or colleagues or anyone just say, "I already know about mastery," it makes me really worried.

Sana Malik

Do you actually know? Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Because I don't know what that means. I don't know what it means.

Sana Malik

I just wanted to add here something about a teacher from my school a few years ago, I think, and I said, "Do you know what mastery is?" And she said, "What's mastery?" And I was like, "You are using the approach every single day because you're doing everything because that's your school's ethos, its culture, its non-negotiables. You're doing this, this, this. You are teaching, this is the approach you're using."

So again, as you said, Adam, that what is mastery? If you ask a teacher what is mastery, they might not be able to say, "Oh, okay," but they're doing it. If there's good teaching, then it's there. Your approach is mastery. So sometimes it's like they don't understand exactly what and how to explain that, but if you do all these elements, you are definitely approaching it with a mastery approach.

Adam Gifford

Yeah. And I think just the last waypoint for me, it's kind of a bit of a health warning really, is that when, we'll just take the English curriculum, for example, when the mastery approach was discussed, I have great faith that when it was first discussed and the sort of decision was made that that was going to be an approach that underpinned the national curriculum. I absolutely believe that everyone in that room, in those initial conversations had a very clear understanding of what it was and there was no question. It was a way of describing an approach that has got a widely agreed-upon set of elements if you read about mastery and those sorts of things.

I think where it becomes problematic is when we hear snippets of it, and it's kind of like whenever you pass something on, by the sixth person, you've whispered in their ear what a mastery approach is and all of the elements, all I hear is, "Mastery and concrete materials." That's it. So what a mastery approach is is just simply using concrete materials and that's kind of it.

And I think that's where, I don't know, but it may be slightly problematic is that if we all looked and read at the elements that are kind of widely accepted as evident in a mastery approach, then I think what we'd find are the elements of very good teaching, very good lesson structure, and something that's been successful over time and that's been born out in research.

So I think that the mastery definition... What's the way of describing it? The mastery definition adventure is one that I think we just need to be really, really clear that we know what it is because if we do, then chances are we'll also know the elements that are going to make me a better teacher and keep being curious about what it is and read lots because it's rooted in some really good, some really good stuff.

Robin Potter

I think that we're all in agreement then. That's the most important part, good teaching and setting up students for success. Fantastic.

Sana, it's been a pleasure yet again. Thank you so much for being on our podcast.

Sana Malik

Thank you. And it's my pleasure as well.

Adam Gifford

Thank you for joining us on the School of School Podcast.