Episode 194: Teachers should be encouraged to observe each other's lessons. Here's what we learnt from recent observations

Here we are. It's another episode of the School of School podcast and we've got the regulars here. We've got Robin, we've got Adam and we got Andy, who's me. Say hi, Robin and Adam.

You can go first, Robin. can... Yeah, no, fall for it. Let's go for it. Yeah, too. Yeah, are we?

Are we gonna fall for this? Yeah, don't even bother. Hi. Yeah.

Yeah, don't even bother. Okay. Nevermind. Robin and Adam are here and we're going to talk about, just some insights, I guess, on, on, on school visits, like what we picked up visiting schools recently. think it's something that we always like to talk about. Obviously all of us have, the three of us have opportunities to visit schools quite regularly. And, we always pick things up when we watch, when we watch schools and we watch the students and, and, and even watch the teachers.

I just, so recently I was, Robin and I and Adam all visited some schools in England together, but I've also visited schools separately. Adam, why don't we kick off with you? Like what's some of the stuff that you've picked up recently as you observe?

Yeah, the biggest thing that my takeaway that I absolutely love is how opinionated children can be when they're allowed to be. And I think that's brilliant. So let's just take off the parent hat because you might think, hang on a sec. But what I really, really love is that, I don't know, I know we've spoken about this a million times before about mathematics, just seems very cut and dry. You just get the right answer and that's what it's all about and all those sorts of things.

Yeah, so true.

No filters.

When we had an opportunity, which we have had, and we're really fortunate to get here to hear different children in different places, you know, when they start to really talk about mathematics, that they have really strong opinions about how you go about your business, about why this would work, and I need to know this, and are you sure about that? And I think that is so important. Like we think of the world we live in and that criticality and how do you practice that?

And we practice it through this. And I just think that math is such a wonderful subject for that. And I think that when you are patient and you give children time to consider and they really believe that you value their opinion, you want them to respond in a way that goes, you go, tell me all about it. Like, what do you think? And good, bad, and different, sorts of things. I think that there are some really strong opinions. And I guess it makes me think, if I look back on my teaching practice,

how much did I let those opinions develop and be explored? And I think it's really powerful. And I think that that's one of the really big takeaways where we are in a fortunate position at time where we get to just sit and listen to the children that we choose to and really listen. And I think that's one of the big takeaways that I took from all the schools that we visited. And I love it, I absolutely love it.

Yeah.

Now here's one thing that kind of, and I totally understand why it is, but I know so, so, you know, the last, I guess, last group of schools that I visited, a few of the schools made an effort to pull some of the kids out of class and come talk to us, which was fun. You know, they're all, they're all excited because, those are the people that made the books. Wow. They must be really important. You know, what kids are like, right? But

Yeah.

They always tend to pick those that are kind of at the top, want to talk to us, right? Like by the top, what I mean, whatever that means, right? Like the ones that can answer quickly or the ones that know their multiplication, whatever it is, right? However you would perceive those at the top. And I never, I mean, I love talking to those kids. I love talking to all the kids, but I really wish I got...

talk to some of the other kids sometimes, like those that are struggling and those that are in the middle and, and maybe those that don't like math, right? And ask them like, what don't you like about it? You know, cause we don't get those, you know, I don't know if you guys have noticed the same thing and it totally makes sense. If somebody came to see my school, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to pick the best kid. Of course I am. Right. Cause you want to kind of want to, it's not showing off, but you, you don't want the kids to embarrass you. Right.

Right.

Yes, true. But even, you know, we do get the chance to wander around the classroom and have some conversations with some of the students. And, and those times are sometimes kind of magical because you do get these just random moments of, know, they're doing their maths, but they're also maybe having a conversation about their favorite, I don't know, color of pencil because

Yeah.

and they see you there and they want to show you that they can do the maths, but they're also kind of interested in a few other things going on at the same time. So you are talking to all different levels and yeah, but I get such a kick out of kids. mean, you they always say kids say the darndest things. Like they really do. And Adam, your comment, you know, just having them come out of the classroom.

No, I... yeah.

having those conversations about math, but then also just sharing. Just some of them are just...

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think, also in the classroom, and I guess the part that I go back on is that patience part. And I think that when those children, the ones that are struggling or they dislike it or those sorts of things, I think in the first instance, of course, they want to provide you with what they think the answer you're looking for is. Here's a guest and they want to know, I don't know, I need to say the right thing. So I say, yes, I'm using these counters or something.

Well, they'll tell it like it is,

Mm, yeah.

You're not really, mate. You sort of think that's the right response. I'm not interested in that. actually, tell me that what's going on, though. And I think when you get into that, it's kind of like, well, actually, this bit's really hard. Or I don't like, or whatever it may be. And I think that's the thing. think that when you're able to talk to them, and yeah, of course, of course, when children are coming out and they're primed, they know that they're coming out. Of course, of course, they're going to.

prepare as any of us would if we were giving a speech somewhere or you know doing a talk or whatever there's some level of preparation. But I think it's that, I think it's that it is the part and both your touch note that getting under the surface of it I suppose and really you know hearing, tell us all, just tell us without thinking I want to give you the answer that I think you're looking for.

Yeah. And just, I think also, I think one of the things that is a good habit to get into when you're observing lessons is actually being very attentive. Like being, actually watching very carefully, but not in a creepy way, but like kind of hiding in the shadows a little bit in the classroom.

Yeah, fly on the wall.

Yeah, fly on the wall and don't even bother with the teacher, just watch the children, right? Because that's where you really get a sense of what's going on. Because the teachers, obviously, they're going to be on the best behavior because you're in the classroom, number one. And number two, it's kind of like...

It's not that interesting. know that sounds maybe that sounds a little bit kind of, you know what teachers are gonna do. You know what they're gonna say, right? It's kind of predictable. It's more interesting to watch the children because the children, like I think you pointed out Adam, they, you know, it's warts and all. They'll tell it like it is, right? Like if you give them the chance that they're because they haven't really figured about it to a certain extent, they've sort of figured out what kind of answers you're looking for and they're gonna give them to you, but also haven't conformed like adults do, right? So the little, you know,

individualities are still very much there. I remember in one classroom, I don't remember what school it was, doesn't matter what school it was, there was a boy and he was using a pencil and the pencil was about this big. You know, it was like, was, had the rubber or an eraser on the end and had just enough wood to have

the lead sticking out and he was writing with this and it was like this, you know? And you think, okay, what's going on there, right? You know, because an adult would never do that. And that's sort of what I mean, right? Because you would have conformed by that. You'd be like.

I'm not going use his pencil because everyone's going to make fun of me. He chose to use that pencil, right? So what's going on? There's something interesting going on there, right? But he's writing a lot. Like he's really frantically writing in his journal. So that's interesting to me. So then I will gravitate to that child and see, okay, what's going on here, right? I find those kinds of things quite intriguing.

Yeah, I also loved their, when they show us their journals and you know, they have a creative journal for example, and they have to create their own word problem or something. But sometimes the background on how they ended up creating that problem is the most interesting part of the whole assignment, you know, and it doesn't matter what the problem actually is. It's more about how they got to that point or what.

Yeah.

what made them choose what they did to create the problem. sometimes you get a whole background story with it, more than what you anticipated. yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But but it's.

think that's the interesting thing, isn't it? It's when they think, right, this person's genuinely listening. So they're not just checking for the answer or checking for what I'm doing or whatever. They're actually paying a bit of attention to it. And you can almost see that shift. And it's like, right, I'm moving from this to take that pencil, for example, Andy, he's probably desperate to go, I'll tell you the reason behind this. I'll tell you the story behind this or for that journal entry, Robin, or whatever it is. And it's that thing that goes.

Yeah, that's it.

Well, I'm going to tell you about what really interests me in amongst this, you know, and I think that those parts as well are fascinating because they tell you a lot about that individual kid and how they see themselves in their school. Like this is how I see myself in my classroom. This is, you know, I find it really interesting.

Exactly.

I always walk out of visiting a school buzzing with ideas and just so enthusiastic. I just love visiting schools. I don't know about you guys, but yeah.

I think it's a privilege and I'll say to anyone that the second you walk into a school you learn something. There's something that you're to take away. Now good or bad, right? Sometimes you see something and say, I'm not going to do that. those, you know, like every time, and like you're saying, the longer you spend in a school. And I think that's the thing. I think that that's where.

Every time. Every time.

you

I don't know, this is probably a whole different podcast, but we miss a trick when in education, we don't just do visits. We just go, and I know it's hard to manage and resource and all those sorts of things, but you don't need to spend long. And like you're saying, Andy, you can spend what, 10, 15 minutes, not even. And you'll definitely walk out with a bag full of, right, I just need to sit and digest this for a bit, you know, because they're a lot.

Yeah. But there is also something to be said for being a fly on the wall for a couple of lessons in a row where you come back day after day and watch because then you really are a fly on the wall. Like people are now used to you being, you know, if you walk into a classroom for 10 minutes, for sure, the dynamic of the classroom changes, right? But if you can hang around for a few days and watch, that's a whole different thing. But that's when you're getting into

Mm-hmm.

you know, serious lesson study and things like that. But if you've ever had the privilege to privilege to do that, it really opens your eyes up to a lot of things. But yeah, even just walking in within a couple of minutes, if you really pay attention, if you're not just like looking at what's on the walls and and watching the teacher, but actually watch what the children are doing within five minutes, you'll pick up about 10 insights, you know, immediately about what's happening, you know, what's actually taking place. Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah, and I think you touch on and again, this is probably good enough for a whole other episode as well, but I think you pick up on a really good thing where a lot of schools, a huge number of schools will move away from single lesson observations and thinking that you can sum up an entire teacher and their career just by going into a lesson and watching for half an hour or an hour or something like that. And it's that thing around, like you're saying, mean, there's so many different dynamics at play when you go in there.

Rubbish.

And I think that if the people that you're in just are normalized, you know, and we're fortunate because we do go into a lot of schools where it is more normal for visitors to go in and you can tell that. think you can, you know, because the children don't respond in a way that's, if you're brand new, you like you hadn't had a lot of visitors, they'd respond in a certain way. We go into schools where it's far more normalized. And I think you get a really good sense or you get a far better sense. But you're right, it takes longer.

Yeah.

Yep.

And to be able to see that across the school, I think as well. How often do teachers in their own school have an opportunity to go and watch the other people in their schools teach or for someone else to teach their class, sorts of things. And then it comes back to just that lesson study model and whatnot. But yeah, it's really fascinating. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's difficult to resource and all those things, but.

Yeah, my guess is not nearly enough, right? Because there's a job to do, you know, and we all have to get on with it, right? Yeah.

You'd learn a hell of a lot though, wouldn't you? Well, we do. mean, and again, I think it's a very privileged position when we're able to go and visit schools and listen to children, teachers, watch what happens.

Yeah. It's just that I think that also, you know, think part of the, part of the realities of just being in a job and we probably experienced the same thing in our own jobs is that, you get so, you get so wrapped up in having to deliver so many things and you have so many like things on your to-do list all the time that if you do have an opportunity to have a bit of spare time, you're going to try to catch up. You're not going to go and take on.

an observation as a, a, I've got a couple of hours. I'm going to go observe some lessons. You're not going to do that. You're to mark papers or you're going to prepare an assessment or whatever, right? You're going to do something so that you don't have to do it at home later, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We probably had.

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I guess those things in the... Sorry, you go, you go.

I have to say we probably have to circle back on that, but Andy, just thinking though how, and we commented on this a few times after visiting schools, is every school has its own culture and the teachers in the classrooms, they're teaching the same lessons, but the dynamic with the kids in that particular class is guaranteed it's different than if I walk down the hall or if I walk, go to another school and

Yeah.

But that's a whole other topic of conversation.

Yeah, I know it's a great point. you know, so there's just recently because we had this condensed kind of like school visit agenda. We went to one school. There's four form entry, which means they have four classrooms at the same year group.

Right? So we, you know, in our case that we were looking at year four in England and in London and, and every single classroom is teaching the same lesson and you can, it's an open, open idea. So you could walk in, in and out of every classroom. So just like, yeah, this is the same lesson, different teachers, different kids, completely different.

dynamic, even just things like the lighting in the classroom, everything changes everything, right? It's just interesting how you walk in and you all of a sudden it's like you're a different universe, right? And then we also saw one lesson being taught, that one lesson being taught at a different school as well in one of the school visits. And again, so different, right? So it's interesting how, you know, like people sometimes say, you know, you don't like it's too prescriptive or that's not the case at all. Every teacher, every classroom brings everything to life in a completely different way, right?

yeah. Yep.

Yeah, so what's key takeaway from from these things?

Let kids talk. Let them just share. Allow them to be who they are.

Yeah. Let them bring their whole selves to the classroom, right? Yeah? Like everything, their background, everything. Bring it to the class.

Yeah, I think that's...

Yeah.

I think the other thing for me that the sort of key take away from it, and again, we've already said about how difficult it is, just, it's that sort of, the fours, you know, spoke a lot. It's that sharing the expertise within your own place, you know, and listening to the other children, all those sorts of things, and however you can try to manage that, you know, just for the things that we've said.

If teachers can have a look in their own place and look at their own children from a different perspective and those sorts of things, just how powerful that can be. And I think that, you know, if you can make it happen, you can learn a lot.

I think there's a lesson, I think there's a lesson for the school leadership team, the administration of the school, which is, you know, and then I think it's just a recent insight for me is you have to schedule this stuff in, you have to make your teachers, this is the best professional development. Once your teachers reach a certain level, okay, so hit that baseline, call it like a.

you know, what we would call like a fellow teacher qualification level in our circles, right? Once they reach that baseline, the most important thing is that they become a reflective practitioner. And there's no better way for them to become reflective on their own practice than to sit and observe other people's lessons. But because of the nature of their job,

They won't do it on their own because they've given spare time. have too much to do as it is. So there, so, so you almost need to schedule it. You need to make it part of your, your school. You need to go observe different lessons. Yeah.

You must, you can't leave it to chance, eh? And I think that the schools where that behaviour's normalised, and that happens a lot, the background to that is a huge amount of work and commitment and consistency in that school leadership to make that part and parcel of the school, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And you look at schools that are doing it, like, know, the one that comes to mind, obviously, is Sandringham in London. mean, you know, lesson studies, just a normal part of their, of their, of their culture. And, you know, just go into leaps and bounds. They're improving all the time. Right. It's, they're open. They're open to everybody observing and, and, reflecting on lessons together. And that's so important.