Episode 208: How maths mastery helped 100% of EAL students pass SATs

Welcome back. It's time for another School of School. Exciting episode of a podcast. Robin and Andy, how are you? it's always difficult. Whenever I say good afternoon or this morning, sort of, but I suppose it's a little bit irrelevant. Depends what time you're listening to it. Anyway, how are you both?

All right.

I'm good. I'm better than Andy, apparently.

Well, this is is excellent news and I'm really pleased to say that we've got Matt Ashby from Aragon Primary as a guest today. Matt, how are you?

Yes, I'm good, thank you.

Yeah, it's really nice to have you here. I know you've been associated with Maths — No Problem! for a long time now, 10 years I think. That's a chunk of time, isn't it?

Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, it's a long time, but it's obviously a good scheme, so we're keen to stick with it.

Yeah, brilliant. Well, that's excellent news. Look, for those listeners that have perhaps not met you before, they don't know anything about the school, can you just give us a bit of a rundown about yourself and Aragon Primary?

Yep, so I'm Matt Ashby. I've been teaching for 12 years now. I've been using Maths — No Problem! for 10 years. I work at Aragon Primary School, which is a school just on the outskirts of London in a place called Morden. We're a three-form school entry and we have around 630 to 640 pupils in our school, so quite a big primary school.

just wonder if you can just sort of give us a wee idea about sort of your journey with Maths — No Problem! I it started right at the beginning, I suspect, if it's 10 years.

Matt Ashby (01:34.7)

Yeah. So, obviously I was in a previous school, didn't use it. And then when I came to Aragon, I was lucky enough to start it at the same time that Aragon was starting its journey with Maths — No Problem! so before we had your scheme, we sort of had, it was sort of like a mixed bag of different resources that we were using. there wasn't a lot of coherence, between what we were all doing. and Maths — No Problem! really brought that together. So we all started with, Dr. Ban Har, we was lucky enough to have him.

come over and support our implementation basically of our scheme. So we was all together in a hall. We were all able to answer any questions that we needed to answer. And then from then we just started to implement it. It was a little bit, at first it was a little bit, is it gonna work? it gonna work? And then we really started to soon see they worked really, really quickly and the children really, really enjoyed what they were doing.

Going from that, start talking about some of our data that we've got now and the impact that it's had in the 10 years that we've looked, because we've fine tuned it. Obviously there's been new series that have come out, but our data speaks absolute volumes for how well the scheme is going and how we're doing with the score with it. So in our last year, SATS results, 94.8 % of the children got the expected data for Key Stage 2, which

Wow.

That's impressive.

considering national is 73%. It's a big, big increase on that and 36.4 % of our children got greater depth. So obviously over a third of our children are scoring higher than the expected level. And I think that's because it's been implemented and it's been built on each year. Some of those children, when we first started it, would have been in year two, so they didn't have national problem from the very beginning. But I feel we're really now getting the children who have had it.

conceptually all the way through their primary education. And I think it's just showing how well it is. We also had 72.7 % of the special educational needs children pass and even one of those children got greater depth as well. So I just think really, really impressive data. Yeah, really, really strong.

Incredible.

You've got a lot to be proud of. That's, that's amazing that really you guys are doing an outstanding job. That's great to hear. So what was the, what, so, you know, you were still pretty much in the beginning of your journey, uh, as a teacher when, when you started working with Maths — No Problem! So can you talk about those early days, like maybe before even using Maths — No Problem!,

how did you feel about teaching mass? How well supported did you feel with this way it was being done before? And then what was the change that you you went through when you started using this program in your school.

I think obviously, yeah, before using it, I've always enjoyed maths. It's always a subject that I've liked even when I was at primary school myself. But I didn't feel that it was taught as the best way that it could be taught. feel that it's been, was beforehand, it was more sort of case of children were doing the maths, they were fluent, but they didn't really have an understanding of what they were doing. So although we may have had fluent mathematicians, we didn't have children who actually understood the concepts behind it. And I feel...

Maths — No Problem! has changed that. feel like now that we've got the learning journey for each of the lessons, I think it allows a consistent approach for all of our staff so we know what we're doing. But I just think maths has gone from strength to strength because of that. And I think it's changed for the children, it's changed their perception of what maths is.

And what impact did it have on the staff and on the school itself and the school's culture? Did it change at all? Did it change mindsets the teachers had at all?

I think it did. think people at first were a little bit skeptical because it was out of their comfort zone. But I feel teachers really started to see when obviously data helps so much when obviously at the end of the year, their children are doing so much better. But I think they could actually see that children were becoming better reasoners. They were coming better at problem solving because it's drip fed ever so gently into the mass no problem scheme.

Obviously you've got the character cards at the side of a question that say, you show me this in a different way or three different possible answers? And I think teachers were aware that children were learning more. And I think that's what really, really helped change their attitudes. Even if some of them were stuck in their ways, they soon got out of those ways because they could see the impact that the scheme was having.

And we've been really fortunate because we've been able to come to your school and see your team in action. All of us have. And it was just such a enjoyable experience. And so we've been let loose in the classroom a little bit to wander around and listen to the teachers and listen to the students and see their work. And I'm just curious, obviously there's been turnover over the 10 years, but all of your teachers, you know, seem...

Like their training is obviously successful. And I'm just curious if that has been your doing, making sure that when people come in, they're getting properly trained before they're put into the classroom. How has that all come together?

I think it's a combination of a couple of things. I what I tend to do is when I have new staff join me, I tend to do a lot of team teaching with them because obviously I think it's very important that everyone's got a consistent approach to the scheme because I think it works so well. So we need to all follow that same model. I have done a lot of training on other areas. We've done things on variation, STEM sentences.

to try and make sure that everyone's aware of what they need to do. But I think also the Fundamentals Course that is available online on Maths — No Problem!, I think it allows teachers to go back to the information. So I had one teacher that was saying to me, right, bar modeling, what do I really need to do about it? How can I get it to where it needs to be? And we sat down, we watched the video on the Fundamentals Course, the short snippets of the videos, and they just said, it's really clear. I really know what I need to do now.

and I think what they really took from it was the bar modeling is it allows them to get generalizations and it allows them to teach generalizations to the children. So they were saying to me, but why on the subtraction bar model, do you put the bigger number on the top? And I said, when you're doing a column subtraction in that abstract stage, what number goes top? Well, the number goes first.

And there was like, the biggest number. And I said, so you can teach that as a generalization now that because you're using the representations, the biggest number needs to be on top in a subtraction calculation. So I think the fundamentals course online is really, really helpful for staff to go back to as well.

Do your children help? Like if you get a new member of staff, do they kind of tell the new teachers what they need to do?

Yeah, I think that's coming out of our pupil voice we had with the children and the head teacher and I, and we said to them, like, what would you like about Maths — No Problem!? They said the structure of the lesson. And we sat there and we thought, would they like the structure of the lesson? And they all said that they loved it because they knew what was coming. And if something wasn't there, they was then able to say, why are we not, where's the Explore? And the teacher, we're gonna need to the Explore, but it would really, really help. So they do pick up if that structure's not adhered to.

Hmm. Hmm. Structure is so important. Like I think that that's, that's one of the things that, you know, I suppose, you know, Adam and myself and Robin quite fortunate in the sense that we get to visit a lot of schools and we get to, you know, see how schools are, are run.

Obviously when we go there, we're, we're watching lessons because everybody wants to show us lessons and one of, but there's, there's so much underlying things. mean, everybody thinks that when we go, you know, when, when someone like, when I go in and watch a lesson, for example, like I won't speak for the others, but I when I do, what I pick up on is exactly those things. It's the structure. Like, do the children know what's going to happen? Do they know what's expected of them? Right. Because that repeated thing every day, it's like every day we're going to kind of like,

You know, if it's like time for you to get your journal out, there's not a lot of faffing about. There's like, they know where the journal is. They know it's going to come out. They know they need, you know, these things to, to, to write in their journal. They know what a journal, you know, and it's just when you don't have that, it's really apparent because when you walk in a classroom and you say, let's do this and the children have no idea what you're talking about and they're like, well, where is that? And what do I want? You know, and so much time is wasted effectively, which could be high quality learning time.

is ways to just, you know, faffing about in the classroom, trying to, yes, the structure is really important, especially for those schools with challenged neighbourhoods, know, neighbourhoods where there's a lot of deprivation or, you know, socioeconomic challenges, where it's likely that those children are not getting a tremendous amount of structure at home, or at least some of them, right? And that repeatability is really a huge thing.

Yeah, definitely.

It's interesting that children know it as well though, and that they want it, right?

Yeah, it is interesting. We was a little bit, because we wondered whether would they like the same repetitiveness. But I think, like you said, I the children know where they stand, what's coming next. And I think that that puts them at ease because they know this is what we're going to do. This is what we're going to get to the end goal. And then we're going to be able to answer our workbooks because we've made all these small steps approach.

Yeah, I'm going to have a chance to share my ideas. I'm going to have a chance to talk to my peers. I'm going to have a chance to listen to the teacher. I'm going to have a chance. You know, they know that those, so they're not anxious about what's going to happen next, or maybe they feel like they desperately need to say something, but they know there's going to be a time and place for them to say that thing. And, and, and, and often it's to their peers, not just the whole class or whatever the case may be. I love that. I love that the kids are the children are, are, are, are zoned into it, you know,

But it's hard work. It's hard work to get your entire school culture aligned and working together. How about that challenge? Because you were there at the beginning. It must have been challenging to get everybody to... Because everybody wants to do things their own way, right? Really.

Yeah, it's true. And I think each member of staff that may be at different points, obviously, like I said before, some staff were set in their ways. But I think there was a certain point where each member of staff would have that moment and think this is the scheme that we need to use. I mean, even from my personal, my personal experience, we had a lesson when we were looking at fractions where we was taking a mixed number, a fraction away from a mixed number. And we asked the children,

okay, I put brought them in from break time, had them sit in there. And I had one litre filled up in my first beaker and then I had one fifth in my second beaker. And I said to children, okay, so one and one fifth take away two fifths. And I was just looking around at all the children. was like some children scratching their heads, some children with puzzled looks on their faces. When we actually started to break it down into the CPA approach and we had that practicality there of the concrete resource, we then drew the bar model alongside it.

Um, we then first of all said, right, we're going to need to get rid of one fifth. So we poured one fifth out and at the same time we used our bar model to cross out on our bar model. And then the next part we said, right, we need to take away another fifth. So we then took our other fifth away. And as soon as we poured it out and the Georgian looked at the bar model, there was just a sea of hands up in the air.

Um, and it just, that for me, and I think that's what each other member of staff have had is just that moment where before people would have just turned obviously a mixed number into an improper fraction and took it away. And yeah, they would have got the answer, but that they really understand what they're doing. And I think with that, think each member of staff and that journey will be a different point for them. But each member of staff has had that moment where they think this is why we're doing it. This is why we're doing the CPA approach. And this is why Maths — No Problem! is so important.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's more difficult for the teacher,

Yeah, it's more preparation, but it's more preparation for a good cause. You're not just preparing something like that just for the sake of, Maths — No Problem! are telling me to do it. It's because the children are getting a deeper level of understanding with the resources that they're using.

I always find it fascinating, when you said sort of 10 years, three form entry, so that's a chunk of staff and a decent chunk of children. Consistency, you look at your numbers, like I'm just looking down here, 98.4 expected, 36.4 greater depth. You guys must be doing a hell of a lot right, because to get that consistency over 10 years, and I think that's the thing, right, is that when you talk about that, it makes complete sense, like the example you gave.

It just makes complete sense that if you do this, this and this, the conclusion that you come to is one that just makes sense if you like. So you have that understanding and it feels like there's no sort of tricks involved. It's just that, there you go. That's just the kind of way it works. But I wondered, I know you've already touched on this. I don't want to sort of rehash what you've said, but do you have like conscious, like two parts, one that sort of evaluation of your maths program kind of every year just to maintain these sorts of standards.

and whether or not you have something specific that you do for say all new arrivals to your school to teach whether they've been sort of in the game a while or whether they're brand new to teaching.

Yeah, I think, I think we do, do obviously look at it year on year, but I think it is just that rigour of the team teaching as I previously mentioned, just making sure that lots of lesson observations, just to make sure and having that sort of open coaching role where I would have a look at this part, right? You can teach the first part and then we can sort of say to him, right, this is what I would do better next time or this is what I would do. And I think that just raises the standards, letting other teachers watch each other. How does this person do it in this class? So how does that work?

and how could I improve my practice? So I think we have a lot of reflective and open honesty sort of approach with our teaching because we all learn best from each other. And if I've got a new member of staff and they're coming to watch someone who's been completing maths like myself there for 10 years, they're just gonna pick up little tricks of the trade that they can then go and implement into their classroom. So I think it is a lot about that open door policy and that culture of coaching within lessons that really, really helps.

So can I go back just for a second? You talk about that light bulb moment for each of your teachers and happening at different times. What was it for you? Is there a defining moment?

I think it was that fractions lesson. think, yeah, I think, I think just because like I said beforehand, I would have just in previous schools in a previous setting, I think I would have just converted the mixed number into an improper fraction and then have just taken it away. And when I started to see by the end of that lesson, because before previously we would have may have had enough children have got the expected level of that particular objective.

but just to see all the children. And I think what hit home the most for me was the children with special educational needs. How much, how many more of those children were coming along on the journey with us because we had had that practicality with them. And I think they've, think those children have benefited the most out of our scheme. Just because they're not frightened to have a go at it now. It's not just numbers. They can actually manipulate the resources in an active stage of Bruner's approach and can literally feel comfortable in manipulating it, trying to have a go, not worrying about it because they're with their peers, they're doing it as their journey. So I think those children have really, really benefited a lot from your scheme.

That's really good to hear.

I it's huge. I'm still staying because again, if you put like those are figures, but those figures are real children, right? So that means that there's, you've got almost all of your children ready for secondary school. Like you've properly done the job. Where nationally, a quarter of children, according to the assessment, aren't ready. They're not ready for secondary school, but they've got to go and face it anyway. And that's tough, right? That is tough.

So to be able to give your children that start where it's just like they can come into the secondary school, yeah, we're good. We're ready to go. mean, that's, yeah, that's what those numbers mean. And I think that that's huge. That's huge. And not just for like an assessment sake, but these are real people. That's the implications of it. And that's massive. It really is.

When you came as well, I think you could see that how the children were applying that learning to real life concepts. I remember in the year six lesson that we watched, and they was able to talk about how they would relate that to real world. And some of the answers when we all looked at each other and thinking, what brilliant answers and not jobs that we would normally associate with children thinking of, but we had lots of different other astronauts.

lots of different things that they were able to apply that learning to. And I think that just shows the depth, the depth of the understanding of what they've got.

Yeah. And that, and that, you know, one of the, one of the comments for a lot of children, leaving elementary school, primary school and getting into secondary school is I don't think that when I'm learning is in any way related to my life, right?

Especially when they start getting into algebra and things like that. They just really don't understand why they need to learn this because it just seems so far fetched in their minds. Because they don't have any conceptual understanding of what they're doing. But when you make it real, when you use, say, hey, you know, ask, if you just ask a child, like, okay, when would you ever subtract two fifths from one and a fifth?

that, you know, that never, right? Like what is crazy concept? Like, why would I ever do that? You know? But if you can actually give them like, say, Hey, I need to remove two fifths from this. This is what I have. I to remove two fifths from that. And you show them in a concrete way to go, I can imagine where that might actually apply. You know, what if it was, do you know what I mean? And then that, that

that then gives, helps them imagine themselves as mathematicians in their lives. And then they're interested in it, right? Cause they realise if I'm going to, if I want to be an, you said astronaut, if I want to be an astronaut, I better know how to do these things, right? Cause astronauts need to do these things, you know, but it could also be other careers that you would, you know, I remember having this discussion with a friend of mine who's a surgeon and you know, Robin, you know him very well as well. He was talking to me about all the complex math that he does as a surgeon, right?

Which is interesting, you know, so he's a plastic surgeon. He deals with, with, you know, um, trauma cases a lot, you know, like people who, you know, have had horrible either burns or, you know, accidents or whatever, you know, he talks about like, okay, so if you've to take a skin graft or someone, and let's say put it somewhere else on them because of a burn, let's imagine, right? You can't cut a piece that's too small.

No. No. It's really important you get that right.

Right? That's, that's really bad. Sorry, miss Jones. There's a hole in your face. You know, that's not okay. Right. And, but you know, it's topology. Like there's no flat part on your body that, know, so you have to work this out mathematically. Right. It's not easy, you know, and they have tools to help them and stuff, but, but, but realistic, like, so someone would never imagine, well, I want to be a doctor. need to be really good at mathematics.

Actually, yeah, you do, you know, you need to prescribe the right amount of medication or you need to, you know, you need very high level, topology and geometry to do certain types of surgery and stuff. Right. And it's, anyway, so, so it's good. It's good that the kids can imagine that they can see that's real to them. You know, these numbers always mean something.

And that's part of, think also what bothering to spend that 15, 20 minutes or whatever it is at the beginning of the class with with a, you know, an explorer task where they can explore real world context where the kinds of numbers and operations that they're dealing with would be used, right? Or measurements, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's obviously what Ban Har said when they were training their first initial training as well. He said that about everything, having that story, that story element to that exploration does allow the children to make, make it into a real life context, which I think obviously gets that buy-in from them straight away.

Yeah, that's right. They see it as something that's important to their lives, right? Not just arbitrary, you know, kind of. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, just fluent. Yeah.

Because that is a common comment, I would think, from a lot of kids. It's like, why do I need to know math? Yeah, why do I need to learn this? This doesn't apply to anything in my day-to-day life, but actually it does.

Yeah.

And I think we link it in as well. We have a STEM week at our school where we get people whose fields involve mathematics. So we have people who work in chemistry, et cetera, or data handling. And we bring all those people in and they speak to the children and talk about how mathematics is involved in their school. So again, I think that improves children's want to learn because they can see, I would like to aspire to do that job or I would like to aspire to do what this person's doing. So I think it's really important.

Yeah. Fantastic.

Well, this has been wonderful having Matt on and we just thank you for being here and sharing your story with us. Your school is really outstanding and we just feel lucky to have you in our community. So thanks again for coming.

No worries, thank you too. Thank you.