Episode 214: Transforming Maths Education at Star Primary

Welcome. It's another episode of the School of School podcast. You can hear the giggling in the background. We've had a go at this intro once before, but we've got to push the record button. So we thought we'd come at it. We sort of, we've reviewed and evaluated our test go and we think we've done okay. So we're going to continue on with the podcast. Robin, half of the regulars, you're here. Welcome. How are you?

I'm great. Apparently that's throwing me off because it's only half of the regulars and I don't normally push record. But guess what? I was supposed to push record today. We figured it out. We're good.

Yeah, but we found out early and this is the most important part, not at the end. Yeah, we got there. And it's an incredibly warm welcome to a guest to the show who's been guests of many things from Maths — No Problem! from a long time, Mateu Ramonet from, I hope again, we discussed this in the first intro. It's a Catalan name and you're going to do it more justice than I am. But for listeners, assistant head from Star Primary in Newham, welcome to the podcast, Mateu.

Thank you so much. Yes. Well, lovely, lovely to be here. I'm definitely a bit thrown by the second introduction, but hopefully I won't repeat myself too much. But yes, lovely to be here. Thank you for your welcome.

So your assistant head, Star Primary, you were telling us that, I think Robin had asked you, you'd been at Star Primary, you can tell us about that, but also what's happening at Star at the moment, which is pretty special, which is, do you want to tell us a little bit more about your school, your setting, all that sort of stuff?

that's right yeah so yeah so absolutely big big anniversary this year for our school.

So 130 years old this year, so big big celebrations. We have a sort of a big alumni event actually next week where sort of former staff, former pupils and local members of the community are going to come in. It'll be a really big celebration and in fact the whole year there's sort of events planned so yeah very big year at our school.

That's so exciting. I did mention already, since this is our second time through, that you're only 27 years younger, the school is only 27 years younger than Canada, which is mind-blowing for us. I cannot believe that. But on top of it, you mentioned earlier to us that this is also your ten year with using Maths — No Problem!, which is also in...

huge accomplishment. At least I'm so impressed because that means you're one of our OGs, which is incredible. I can't believe it's been 10 years already.

Yeah, yes, so we're definitely veterans for sure, battle tested. But yes, so this is my 10th year at STAR and it will be our ninth year doing Maths — No Problem!. So it came in shortly after I arrived, which was absolutely brilliant. So I've really seen it from its inception really to where it is now. So that's been great.

And so you've been there since the beginning of using it, and how's the journey?

Yeah, it's been brilliant. So our borough, so Newham in East London, took part in a trial essentially with Maths — No Problem! So some of the senior leaders at the time had the opportunity to go out to Singapore with Maths — No Problem! and actually see lessons in live and actually see what the...

why was it that Singapore was so far ahead on all these sort of international league tables that we hear about, whether it's the Tims report, and really came back so infused that this was definitely the right thing for our borough. And so lots of schools adopted Maths — No Problem! in year one on a sort of a trial basis. And the idea there was that that was sort of the perfect year to really see

how it would work and if it would work. And obviously looking at it now nine years on, it was 100% the best thing for our school. And we quickly saw that adoption move quite quickly through the school. And now, yes, we do it from reception all the way up to year six.

for sure. We've seen it grow, we've had to adapt as the programme adapts. We've really come on a big, big journey as far as the delivery of maths, for sure, with working with Maths — No Problem! But all in a positive way, it's been fantastic.

One of the things that I think that I wore at one stage was working with secondary maths teachers. And one of things that really jumped out with me, because I knew the local authority very well, and I knew it was quite a hot spot for people using Maths — No Problem! in the primary schools. I'd heard this, and I knew it from implementing Maths — No Problem! in my own primary school. But what was really interesting

is that when I was talking to the maths, the department leads, but also the maths teachers, they were talking about this total shift in the way that the children talked about mathematics. It's almost like I could spot some of the children that had that sort of teaching and learning, which I thought was really, it was quite stark. It was really obvious in the secondary schools. And I know that this is an area that I think that you want to talk about and

you know, whatever it is that you want to talk about in that. But I just remember that really hit home because it really threw some of the secondary maths teachers because they hadn't heard children talking about maths like that previously, which I thought was a really astounding impact that was being brought into secondary education. But I'm really interested to hear about you talk about, you know, that, you know.

talking about mathematics and how you develop, manage all those sorts of things.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a really massive believer in the power of maths talk in lessons.

secondary, I can't speak to what secondary education looks like now but I can only talk on my own experiences coming through secondary education here. It very much felt sort of a lesson where you had to survive rather than thrive and so if you were able to follow the teacher

you could plod along nicely, perhaps not with that depth. Really, going back to that lovely word depth, that's really what we're trying to do at primary, really, at staff. So depth of understanding.

One way of achieving it is through a really math rich, sorry, math talk rich classroom. One where children feel empowered to share their ideas. One where they feel empowered to refine those ideas by listening to other people to share their thoughts.

So we've really gone, we've established that in numerous ways. One of them is obviously on a sort of CPD level with our teaching staff, really going through that. So I'm very lucky. I've got a lovely math team that we have at STAR. I know, Robin, you've met Serena and Costina.

So, you know, when we're delivering those CPD sessions, very much, we want our teachers to be our class. And so we very much model as we would want our classes to look like and that set up and those expectations.

So there's a lot of modelling that goes on, watching each other as well, inviting teachers to come and see lessons, that's another really powerful tool to drive that home. And really, the capturing some of the key sentence stems that we can really drive through.

will become more natural as teachers do it more, but sometimes having a bank of some sentence stems that they know that they can really promote some really fantastic conversations within the class is a really good starting point as well.

And we've just seen that sort of confidence soar really in the way that the way that children feel like they can express themselves and ultimately that leads nicely on to the way they actually record their thinking. So when it comes to the journaling it's through that those rich talking opportunities and that sort of back and forth with the teacher, the teacher being the one that's facilitating those fantastic conversations that children can really capture that and then that's where they can

record, put their ideas down and really show exactly where they are in their thought process at this moment in time. That link, that really strong link between maths talk, the way they're journaling and they're recording their understanding is something that we've built and we're very, very proud of. Yeah.

I was going to ask about, has this come over time where you've kind of figured things out like, okay, we want them to record it. It's good that they're able to verbalize what they want to say, but let's now have them journaling or was journaling from the get-go. When did that kind of come in?

So it did take a little while of us being, I guess, confident, really, really secure in our delivery of a typical, shall we say, a sort of a typical Maths — No Problem! lesson, really going through those parts in sequence, making sure they're delivered the way they're intended to. And as that confidence grew, we recognized there's opportunities to actually deepen and explore areas in more depth.

So the explore task, for example, I think initially it threw some teachers on how much time you can actually spend exploring and what that Explore looks like. So we know that it's been a monumental shift in the way math lessons are taught really. was very much a teacher would present this is what we're doing, this is how we'll do it, let's do a few together, okay now on your own, whereas that shift is for me the exciting part is that shift has happened and that shift is so important.

because when presenting to the children immediately what we're doing it's very much can they use their prior knowledge, can they piece together the clues, can we put all of that those conditions for that sort of curiosity, that excitement in those lessons and then that ultimately will can lead to some excellent

recording opportunities through journaling, for example. It did take coming to some of the training to see what that journaling can look like and when specifically in the lesson it would best suit. But once we saw it, we began trialling it in different year groups and now it's something that we do all the way through from year one. it's something, yeah, it's definitely, it didn't happen overnight, obviously, but we're in a really good place with it and teachers feel really secure with where we are think as well.

I'm really pleased that when you started talking about maths talk that you talked a lot about your stuff.

Because I think that's part of it. I kind of think that that sometimes gets forgotten and that we can, you know, the focus is on the children talking to each other. And I guess what we're doing in the maths talk is we're allowing them space to trial their ideas and get stuff wrong and be, like you said, be curious without hesitation, you know, like just being able to discuss stuff and get excited about those things. But then on the flip side.

I guess, you you would have worked and I'm sure all of us know that there are a lot of teachers that are maybe a bit worried about maths, a bit anxious about scared of doing those sorts of things. And I always think that where you have schools where the staff have that same space to sort of talk without persecution, to talk without fear of, I'm going to lose my job if I say this. you know, we know because we say to the children, you're never going to get any better if you don't like just discuss with honesty.

You can't then work out what we need next. So I think I'm really pleased that you raised that because I don't know how hard is that to maintain assuming that you've got staff who feel okay talking about maths, the learning of it, the not knowing how to do stuff. What did that look like? I just want to unpack that a little bit more because I think that if that's happening then there's even better chance of working really well in the classroom. But I'm really keen on your thoughts on that.

Yeah, absolutely. think the first thing I always think about as far as CPD is what are the backgrounds, what are the strengths, what are the areas of development for my staff? so having an intimate knowledge of that is obviously first and foremost most important. So, you know, hopefully schools do have a culture where you can go into different lessons, whether it's, you know, it doesn't have to be such a formal experience. It can be one where

there's small drop-ins where it's I'll come and see this I'm doing this or can I come and view your lesson I there's this part that I really like to see and just having that culture I think is very very important and then also just recognising

We all were trained in such different ways. So the United Kingdom is obviously quite different to say Singapore where one central provider is definitely not the case. all go through. mean, I think, you know, whether I think we've got about 30 teaching staff, I am sure that maybe only one or two probably went through the same provider. And that's just one sort of one example out of all of the schools in the UK. So the fact that we've all gone through different providers, we've all had different experiences.

always sort of hot trending trends at the time that maybe you had a that would really sort of driven through your own personal training that shape how you would go about delivering maths. So recognise we're all coming from different backgrounds again is important not presuming that people are all of a sudden confident and so build building that up slowly is also key. I think when Maths — No Problem! first came in we could quickly see that this was going to be a shift in a lot of ways. One of them was just sort of mentality as well, so recognising that.

We know that some people embrace new concepts, new things differently. So just working around that, just making sure that we were supporting everyone that needed that little extra boost as well. But yes, and obviously like you're mentioning, staff does tend to change over time. So new people come in, again, new experiences, new backgrounds. And so just constantly being aware of that and never

So one of the challenges is never presume you can just pick up from where you left off. It's always you've got to maintain, you've got to, I think you use an analogy earlier about gardening, maybe you just keep watering that garden and making sure that we're tending to all the wonderful plants that we have. So yes, it's a forever evolving garden in a way.

I'll bet and I'm thinking that from the students perspective, those that are now in year one, year two, year three. I mean, this is this is all they know. This is what they've been doing. From the beginning, so a little different maybe than some of the. The students in year six. Maybe they didn't start doing this right away.

Do you think that the journaling, because it's kind of helping them, I think, explain at least to themselves how they get to solve a problem, do you think, can you see that when you're looking around or just listening to conversations? What's kind of been some of those aha moments for the students?

Yeah, I mean, I think you notice it in all kinds of ways, even things like when we might do some pupil voice, whereas maybe five years ago, maybe some of the conversations might be...

adult-led because you're having to prompt a lot more. What we're finding now is that all of a sudden we actually have to tell the children to stop because otherwise we'd be there all day. So the children are much more able to articulate exactly what they're thinking. They're armed now with a lot of high quality mathematical vocabulary to really explain exactly what they're thinking, exactly what...

they want to prove or disprove, for example. So it's been a really, really powerful tool. And I guess another area that I feel that with journaling that is really open to teachers' eyes and us as a staff really, and actually, why shouldn't maths have writing opportunities? Why do we neglect that side of things? And actually those benefits can be seen in the way that children are.

again able to articulate themselves, apply what they're learning in English as well. But yes, it's just a, yeah, something I could talk about forever. I love journaling. Absolutely.

Well, we're gonna have to stop you on the journaling because I think we could just do a whole new episode on that by itself. But I'd just like to thank you for coming on today and I hope that you'll come back and speak with us again because you're a wealth of knowledge.