Episode 35: Carrots and Sticks

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Hello, I'm Emily Guille-Marrett.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Introduction

This is the School of School podcast. Welcome to the School of School podcast.

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Andy Psarianos

All right, welcome everyone. Here we are back again. This time we're talking about carrots and sticks. So, Emily, teaching kids. Do you need carrots or do you need sticks?

Emily Guille-Marrett

Or maybe there's somewhere in the middle, Andy. Typical me. I'm definitely not a sticks person. That doesn't mean that I'm anti discipline or the idea that we have to have positive classroom and behaviours, but yeah, I think encouragement and-

Andy Psarianos

Do you think sticks bring positive classroom behaviours, by the way? Because I just, sorry, I got to take, I got that's what you were implying-

Emily Guille-Marrett

No, no. I was saying in the middle-

Andy Psarianos

Keep them in line-

Emily Guille-Marrett

I'm absolutely not saying that. I'm not saying that sticks do that, but I do think you need positive classroom environment. If it sounded like that, I'm really glad that you said that, because I'm totally anti that concept. But I do think having opportunities for kids is really important and building elements of trust. Then I would head towards the idea of a carrot. But the reason I'm sounding slow and I'm slightly smiling about this, is because one of my children, this is quite personal at the moment. One of my kids, who is nine, is just not like I was at school. So I loved... Give me a sticker, give me a prize, give me a house point. I was motivated with these things. I'm in shock and there's a little bit of me that's mildly proud of this attitude, but my son will come home and he's like, yeah, teacher's trying to bribe me again.

Emily Guille-Marrett

I'm like what? You're nine. And he's like, yeah, I don't really want to do it. They keep telling me they're going to give me this house point and I can have extra. But you know, I think, okay, this is also going to have to be child related, isn't it? Because it depends which child you've got, but on the whole I am with the carrot, not the stick. How about you, Adam? You're with the cane.

Adam Gifford

Well, yeah, I don't know is the short answer. I'll tell you why I don't know. It's that sometimes, now this isn't quite carrot and stick. I think that we were some of the last people to go through high school in New Zealand. I was about to say capit punishment. It's not capital punishment, corporal punishment, having a belt, like a strap or a cane.

Andy Psarianos

Capital punishment is another...

Adam Gifford

That's another level. I'll tell you what, you'd learn your times tables though, wouldn't you? No, I don't want to make light of it. In all seriousness though, I just wonder sometimes, when we talk about the carrot and the positivity and those sorts of things, I sometimes think we miss a trick. I'll give you an example. Let's say Emily, that I would like you to use a capital letter, right?

Or a form of punctuation, for example. Now I could, if I so chose, I could say to you, "Oh Emily, what do you think would be good at the end of this sentence? What do you think? Where do you think this could go?" And I could do it this way because I'm trying for that positive affirmation that you've done it, you've got it. Great. I just wonder sometimes if we just need to say, "Hey, Emily, full stop goes at the end there"? I'll come and check back in with you." Now, I know that's slightly different to carrot and stick in the traditional sense, but I do sometimes wonder, I know things like direct instruction have been really slated at times, but there are sometimes where I just want to know. I just want to be told, and if that's wrong, I want someone to say, do you know what Adam you've used the wrong word there?

The better word would be this one. I'll leave that with you. Just give it to me. I haven't got time. I haven't got time to say now, what do you... What... Now, I know that there's space for both, but I just sometimes wonder whether we try to be so positive or, well flip that on its head, that we don't want to be perceived as critical, to the point where it becomes painful. I think sometimes we just need that. We just need that, this is not right. Something needs to be done about it. Done. There we go. That's where we are left. Now, I guess it depends on how that lands is whether you see that's a stick.

Some people will see that as such and they'll say, oh, why didn't you, why wasn't there a bit more rewards based or, oh, tell you what if I'll give you two minutes and you know, if you can find an alternative word for that, I'll come back and I'll give you a sticker, if you've got one. If you need a few more minutes, no problem at all, the sticker's still there at the end of it. Oh, we're on day three, sticker's still there, don't you worry about that. You know what I mean? I think that that's the thing, is that okay, it's not as extreme as you've not learned your times tables, stick out your hand, you get a whack with the strap. Yeah. That not, what we're talking about.

Archaic. Those days, I think quite rightly and thankfully, are gone. But I do wonder whether it filters down and has come into a situation where criticism is seen as a stick. I think criticism is healthy. It's part of life. It's part of what we see.

Andy Psarianos

You've got to learn to take criticism and, okay. But then is that the responsibility of the school to teach people how to take that?

Emily Guille-Marrett

Positive criticism like crits...

Andy Psarianos

What about negative criticism? Let's be real. The world is not a nice place all the time.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Criticism is important. You're making me think of a friend of mine, who's a lecturer in design and he's quite, he does his crits and there's no shining. You're going to get told exactly what's going on in his thought. I saw a card that one of his students had written the other day, and they were like, you were one of the toughest, hardest, most critical people I've ever met. Thank you so much because I'm leaving university, a designer, ready for work, and I just thought he was so touched, because it was, that's what... He's supporting them. He's there because they've got three years and he's got them for two terms or something, and he wants to make sure that... He knows they're talented, that's obviously in higher education, so we all have to take the concept and make it appropriate for the different age groups. But there's nothing wrong with kids having opportunities to have criticism as a balance, at the right time. What do you think, Adam?

Adam Gifford

I agree, but I also think I was just... My mind was starting to wonder a wee bit there, not because of what you were saying, Emily, or it was, based on what you were saying, but I was starting to think about cultural things as well. What I would say is New Zealanders, we are very aware of upsetting people. Now, I'm not going to name the other cultures, but I know some people, and let's just say I had a really dodgy haircut. I'm thinking of certain cultures is that'd say God, it's a rubbish haircut, mate. Just simple, straight up like that. Whereas New Zealanders would probably, oh, have you had your hair cut? Oh yeah, who did you go and see? Oh, right. Are you happy with it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Good, good, good, that sort of stuff, right?

New Zealanders will beat around the bush. We don't want to just come straight out and say, "It looks shocking, mate. What happened?" But I think the point is, is that again, if culturally it's the norm... The people that I'm thinking about who would just say it's a shocking haircut will say, well, why waste time? We haven't got time to waste. It's true, it's a shocking haircut. You know that, I know that, I'll just say it, because it is not meant to upset you. It's not meant to offend you. It's just meant to just say something and I suppose-

Andy Psarianos

It meant to help you, right?

Adam Gifford

Well, yeah, don't go back to the same barber. I think that's the thing is that, culturally, I think what we must do, that there's a responsibility to see criticism as... I don't know if we can wholly take out the emotion of it, but it's just merely information that's designed to make us critical of what we've done, which is quite right.

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Andy Psarianos

You got to set people up for real life. You can't create this mamby pamby environment for people to grow up in where everything is star stickers and rainbows, and then they go in the real world and they get absolutely annihilated by evil reality. Not everybody's nice and not everyone's going to take the time to hope that with all the subtle body language and careful choice of words, that you're actually going to get it, that what they're really saying is, that's a terrible haircut, in a puzzle sort of way that you have to unravel. It's not helpful, really. I understand, I'm not saying that that's bad or anything, but, some people are just going to tell it like it is.

Then if you've never heard real criticism in your life and you go and get your first job and your boss says, "I need a report on X", or whatever, and you give it to him and he goes, yeah, this is rubbish. No one's really helped you. I know that's pretty extreme. I don't think that. I've never been in a situation where that's happened, but it could happen. There's this great story actually, Henry Kissinger. Do you remember Henry Kissinger? He's an American politician. His tactic was this when he was operating in politics. People would create reports for him he'd say, okay, here he'd take it and he put it on his desk and then the guy would come back and say, "Have you read that report?"

His standard line was, "Is that the best you can do?" Then people go, they'd grab it and they'd come back, and then they'd come back a day later or next couple weeks or whatever, depending on the report with another version. They come back a few days later and they'd get the same response, "Is that the best you can do?" Then eventually, they'd get fed up and say, "Yeah, that is the best I can do." And then he's say, "Good, now I'll read it." That was his tactic. That's what he used all the time with people. It was well, well documented and well known. So where is that? Is that carrot or stick? What do you think? Because that's a form of training, isn't it? Yeah.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, but do you know what, because this is that, oh, I think it crosses both, and I was thinking about you Emily, about what you were saying about your son. I think the most effective carrots are the ones that suggest the person giving it to you knows you. Anything else is just not really a carrot. It's just something trivial and nothing. I guess the carrot in Kissinger's case is, he said, it's good enough. He's accepted it and he's read it. Brilliant. Absolutely wonderful, I feel top of the world. The stick, that was leading all the way out, but also nice little learner for the person writing the report. I think that's the thing. I think that that's what it comes back to. I think that sticks are okay if you trust the person wielding them. If you know it's going to lead to a carrot that is picked for you. I think that's when it works.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. But here's the interesting thing about the carrot and stick argument. The carrot is on a stick, and you never get the carrot. I think sometimes where we go wrong is we always give the carrot. How's that? Something to think about.

Adam Gifford

Keep on going until the arms grow. Until you can possibly get it.

Andy Psarianos

Sorry. I'm being a bit silly, I know.

Emily Guille-Marrett

No, I love it. But just to bring it back from being silly to being-

Andy Psarianos

Well, hold on, hold on. There's a question. Are you supposed to give them the carrot? That's the question we should be asking.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Yes. You can't offer the carrot and then not give it to them, if they've done the right...

Andy Psarianos

Why?

Emily Guille-Marrett

Or joke? No. What kind of crazy psycho game are you trying to play with...

Andy Psarianos

No, but everyone thinks the carrot is the good thing, but with the carrot you're leading them on. You're manipulating them with a carrot.

Adam Gifford

Yeah. But then they know they're never going to get it, at some point, they'll give up.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Yeah. That's what I'm thinking.

Adam Gifford

There's your balance.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Maybe that's the thing. Maybe you give them a bite of the carrot.

Adam Gifford

The nibble or the stick. This has changed. We'll give you a little, little go and then... I'm not sure.

Andy Psarianos

Anyway, sorry Emily, go on. You were going to say something profound, and I came up with just random silliness.

Emily Guille-Marrett

No, I wasn't going to say... I'm afraid it isn't profound. I was thinking about the stick idea, because I was thinking, well, we have this visual, ancient concept of the stick, like the cane in the education context. I was thinking, what's the stick in contemporary... What would we describe as the extreme stick? One of the things that I think is really challenging in education at the moment, or it's always going to cause issues, is this concept of excluding from the classroom and eventually excluding from the school. Actually, if we talk about contemporary sticks in extreme senses in education, I just wondered if either of you had any thoughts on that at all.

Andy Psarianos

Being kicked out of school? As a stick? I'm going to turn this on its head here. I don't know what you guys are going to think of this one. I got kicked out of my first high school, and it's the best thing that ever happened to me.

Adam Gifford

Do you know why? Can I ask something just to shake that a little bit, because I'm now fascinated? When the school made that decision, and they wouldn't have made it lightly. When they made that decision, do you think that whatever it was that made it a good thing for you? Do you think that would've ever entered their head?

Andy Psarianos

Let me tell you how it happened. I remember Mr. Ray, vice principal, Malcolm Campbell High School. I remember this, I remember this day, and I don't remember much from those years, to be honest, I was a pretty naughty kid, but you know, I remember the day. He used to go around to all the home rooms in the morning, with a list of who was absent from what class, what day. I skipped classes left and right. Look, I wasn't a perfect student. He came in, and he had his list, little clipboard, Mr. Ray, short man. I remember him very clearly, shiny shoes. He came in and he said, "Okay, Andy, where were you for block four?" No answer. "Block five?" No answer. "Block six?" No answer. "What are you going to do next year? Because you're not coming here." In front of the whole class. I was expelled like that. Can you imagine? That's what happened.

Emily Guille-Marrett

That's insane.

Andy Psarianos

That's what happened. Didn't talk to my parents-

Emily Guille-Marrett

But you came back from it.

Andy Psarianos

Didn't talk to my parents. There was no meeting. There was no discussion. That was it. Next year, I went to another high school. But, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I went to another high school and I had a chance to reinvent myself. That was it. Then I graduated.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Did you have support from the new school?

Andy Psarianos

Nah. No.

Emily Guille-Marrett

Did you have other support networks?

Andy Psarianos

Whatever. I was just an anonymous kid in high school. No one ever talked to me about it or whatever. That's interesting. I'm not saying that should systematically be the way we deal with problematic students or anything. In my case, complete fluke, I happened to into a good path. But, just complete chance. Really. It could have been catastrophically, horrible, could have been the end of me. That could have been the catalyst for my direct decline. I'm going to turn this into Andy's personal therapy session or anything like that. What do we think about that?

Adam Gifford

I'm looking at your situation and thinking massive amount of chance was in amongst all of that. I look at exclusions and I've been involved in the process. I've been involved, not personally as a student, but as an educator. I think that in my, and I'm going to say, limited experience, because I don't know hundreds of children that have been excluded, there'll be people who deal with these children all the time. But I'm not entirely convinced that we are set up to deal with them. We can take a problem away. It's no problem, it's easy, you can just remove a child from a school. If that child, for whatever reason, there was some issue or problem, you no longer have to deal with that. That's just a statement of fact, because that child's not there. But I will go out on a limb to say, I think that there's still far too big a degree of chance. I would argue, you might say otherwise, but I would say you got lucky.

Andy Psarianos

Oh man, I won the lottery so many times in my life, to get to where I am. It's unimaginable how much good luck, with all the horrible things that happened, the amount of good fortune I've had, I couldn't even calculate the probabilities. But that was a luck. That was sheer luck, that was, that that worked out in any kind of positive way.

Adam Gifford

Well, that's the thing. I suppose final on this, is that it strikes me that, when we talk about education, and I guess the ultimate stick is exclusion. You're no longer with a group of people who you've, in some instances, you've grown up with, you're part of that community. You've had thousands of days in a single place. I think the only issue being is that when that stick's wielded, it's like sticking your arm into a dark room and flailing the stick, because you don't actually see the outcome afterwards. Once that child's gone, as a general rule, we don't know everything that happens. All we know is that they're not in that school anymore. I think that that's the part that... I don't know.

There'll be people that know far more than me, but I just see that there's still a too big a degree of chance involved with the outcomes. If we wield that ultimate stick in schools, what happens? What happens to those kids? And, like you said, some are fortunate, and you're one of them. But I'd hazard a guess, is that statistically? I'd say that you are in a pretty small group. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But, but that would be my guess.

Andy Psarianos

I have a funny feeling we're going to be talking about this again. Go on. Somebody close this.

Adam Gifford

Well, carrot and stick, we'll let you decide. But bottom line is, know your children, get the best out of them. I think that'll win. And give them a nibble every now and then not Andy's flipping carrot on a stick forever, for eternity, chasing a carrot. Let them have a nibble. Anyway. Thanks for listening.

Andy Psarianos

Carrots for everyone.

Closing

Thank you for joining us on the School of School podcast.