Episode 64: Grading - What works best? What is the purpose?

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School podcast. School of School podcast.

Are you a math teacher looking for a primary school assessment tool that can give you a detailed look into learner or class achievement? With Insights, it's all in one place. Make sense of assessment data so you can strategically plan and teach lessons. Insights, it's assessment for advancement. Visit mathnoproblem.com for more information.

Andy Psarianos

Hi. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the School of School podcast. So what are we talking about today? I think we're talking about grades and grading systems. So, what's the best, just give the kids a mark, like 80%; or A, B, C; grade point average; developing, proficient, extending? Lots of options. What do you guys think? I mean, I guess there's lots of different perspectives on this. There's a teacher perspective. There's a parent perspective. For schools, what's the advantage of one system over another, do you think, Adam?

Adam Gifford

I think, well, the most advantageous descriptors are ones that are most easily understood. That's, I think, one of the most challenging things, whenever we change how we describe progress or attainment in schools, is trying to make it understandable to parents and children. Because when I first came to the UK, we used levels. And they sort of had a boundary at either end, as does all grading systems. But it's quite hard, because you don't really know what that means. Is that good, is that not so good; the whole, you are doing what is expected or you're doing better than expected, or you're not doing as well as expected? I think the hard part in it all is understanding, what does it actually mean? And it's also the, "Who cares," but what are people actually doing with it?

And that's really important as well, because if we're going from primary school to secondary school, say, and if secondary school doesn't really like ... "Well, what does this mean," or, "We don't trust it," or, "We are not sure about this," or, "We know that there's a different grading system that we are going to use as we move forward," then is it going to work as it should? Bottom line is we need them, but I think it's very difficult to get it absolutely right, so everyone knows exactly what it means. And that's true as a parent, too.

Andy Psarianos

I'd bring it right back, right? I think we're just assuming everybody understands why we grade kids in the first place, or we think we do, but do we really? Why do we even give kids grades anyway? What's the value of that?

Robin Potter

Well, from a parent's perspective, and I do want to take one step back just to say this, this is a topic that is top of mind for me, especially since my kids recently brought home their report cards. So, I've got two teenagers, but one is still ... in Canada, we say middle school. She's 13. And she's on a system that's emerging, developing, proficient and extending. And my son, he's in high school, he gets actual grades, A, B, C, D ... I don't even think there's F anymore, but let's just say so, and an actual number grade.

So, what's the value, Andy? Talk about these two bring their report cards home. And I look at my daughter's, and she's proficient in everything. And in fact, she had an extending in French. So without teacher comments ... Which my understanding of this kind of grading is that proficient means you are meeting and perhaps you have clear understanding of what you should be learning in the classroom. Extending is you go beyond that learning level. But for my daughter, what is unclear is she seems to be meeting all expectations, but I don't know if she's at the top end of those expectations or just meeting those expectations. So I rely on the teachers to make comments that would help me understand that. And unfortunately, that's not always the case. So the value is somewhat lost on someone who's doing well.

Adam Gifford

So, I've worn the parent hat. And funnily enough, my son got some marks back. And I went into the parent portal. And I ventured into the parent portal, into secondary place.

Andy Psarianos

Dangerous place.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, it is, actually. Now, the absolute vast majority of my experience in education's primary school. So sort of secondary school and above, I feel a wee bit out of my depth there. And I'm quite happy not knowing, or being out of my depth there. But I sort of looked at what was fed back, and I couldn't make sense of it. So I had to get my son to explain it to me. And in the end, he said, "This, this and this." And I did the dad thing where he said, "Oh, I got two Bs and a D."

And my first reaction, this is not the way to parent necessarily, was, "What? A D? What happened? Where did it all go horribly wrong?"

And he's like, "No. No, Dad. Dad, that's okay."

Now, either he's using the fact that I don't really get it fully, because it's changing, it's all shifting sands at the moment, at least here in England, or it's legit, and he's saying, "Actually, a lot of people didn't do as well on this test." But it shows where we're moving to, and it shows what we're doing. So I didn't really know, because I didn't fully understand it. So I had to put faith in my son. Of course, I can go to the school and ask those questions. I think the biggest thing for me, though, both as someone who's worked in schools and as a parent, is that part about, what does it show, and how are we actually using these things?

So I get it fed back to me so I can make comments to my son or offer support or say, "Come on, mate, pull your socks, up or do whatever." But in schools, the other place that it's used is to see how teachers are doing. And this is always a bit of a worry, because you're sort of marking your own homework, in a sense, and saying, "If the children do really well in this test or you've taught them in a certain way, that they're going to pass this test," but maybe to the detriment of some other things. Then as a teacher, then I might look like the greatest teacher that's walked the earth, but it may not tell the full story. So we have to have these grades, in one sense, because they form ... and the vast majority of schools, I would argue that this is the case, they form the basis for whether or not I'm a good teacher. And so, there's one sense of why we use them, which comes with its own problems, unfortunately, when that's the case.

Andy Psarianos

Well, there's so many problems with that, right, but do you need to measure the teachers, I mean, or do you just blanket trust everybody?

Adam Gifford

No.

Andy Psarianos

That's a tricky question.

Adam Gifford

I think, yeah, there has to be accountability. I think there has to be, right? There absolutely has to be. But then you've got to put faith in whatever you are using to assess children. So, not only does it work in the first instance, as it should, what are the next steps for children? That's what assessments ... that should be the primary focus.

Robin Potter

As important as it is for the teacher to understand that their assessment is providing feedback for how they're doing, and it's providing feedback for how the child is doing, the question is, are these grading systems actually doing that job? Because to me, it seems like they are falling short. So it goes back to Andy's question originally, is, what is the value, or what are we trying to do here? What is the purpose of a grade?

Andy Psarianos

Well, yeah. So look, the further you dig into this, the more you realise that this is flawed on so many levels, right? But the question, I suppose, is that, okay, so if we say, "This is flawed, we should stop doing it," then what's the alternative, right? And then that's where people come up with stuff like, "Oh, well, let's forget about the grades, the standard grades. And let's say, is your child proficient in this subject, or are they beyond what's expected, or are they still developing their understanding?" Hence, the jargon that's used here in British Columbia and Canada, developing, proficient, extending, versus the As and Bs. But that creates a whole series of other problems, because nobody really understands what it means, right?

So best I can tell, there's at least three valid reasons or justifiable reasons to give grades, right? One is as a measure of how an individual pupil is doing, right? The other one is a measure of how well a school or a teacher is doing, which is the one that often is not discussed, but for sure happens; like if all the kids in this school are getting F, right, then obviously, hopefully someone's going to jump in and do something. Yeah? And then the third one is at a much more macro level, is to see how an education system is working in general, right? And that, again, often people don't think about that, but there are test measures for that. So those are the sort of, I guess, hypothetical ones that we expect are being used.

Then, of course, there's this transfer from school to school. There's like, you're leaving primary school, elementary school, and you're now going to ... whatever, middle school, high school, secondary school, whatever it's called, wherever you live. You're now going to that other place. And you want to hand them over something and say, "This is how this pupil has been" ... what's the right word ... "performing up until now." Those are all good reasons, right? The dark side of this is you're messing with people's lives, right? You're putting people in pigeonhole and you're saying, "This kid" ... So when you say someone's proficient, what are you saying? You're saying, "Hey, your kid falls" ... a brutal word would be, "Your kid's average," right? "Your kid's average. You don't need to worry." That's what you're saying, but nobody wants their kid to be average. Everybody wants their kids to be outstanding, right?

So, that doesn't really help, right? And also, average, there's no such thing. Average is an illusion, right? There's no such thing as average. That's why we have adjustable seats in cars, because not everyone's got the same arm length or leg length. The average person doesn't exist. If you built every seat to be the average person, it would fit nobody, right? So there's all these sort of paradoxes and problems that we need to deal with. So I don't know. I mean, it's a tough one.

Robin Potter

Well, okay, and I have a question specifically for you, Andy, because on previous podcasts, I know you've mentioned that you weren't always the best student, so not to bring up that trauma in your life, but there is a-

Andy Psarianos

It wasn't a trauma. That's what gave me my superpowers, right?

Robin Potter

I know. Of course, of course it is. But so to get your superpower, you'd come home with report cards and they may say, I don't know ... I'm going to assume it was a grade, and maybe it said an F on it. But what if you came home the whole time and your report cards just were consistent and they said, "Emerging," you were emerging, which really meant that you hadn't learned to develop an understanding for that topic? How would you have felt about yourself? Would it have made you feel better, do you think, or-

Andy Psarianos

Well, report cards were never a time where I felt good about myself, for me. Well, actually, I don't know. I don't remember having that many emotional scars around it, for what it is. But yeah, from a very, very young age, it was clear that I wasn't going to ever bring home a really great report card, right? So the expectations were set low. I set expectations for myself low as well, right? So I'd already suffered that trauma as a student, that I didn't now feel like I needed to ... You see, the pressure, if you bring As home all the time, that's a lot more pressure than just being a student that fails all the time.

Robin Potter

You're right.

Adam Gifford

Is that Andy's top tips: "Start low, and then every year, just try to sort of up it a wee bit"?

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. Don't even try, don't even try.

Robin Potter

Strive to emerge. But my point was bringing that up was more so, it's not helping kids who are doing well or could do better, because I question how much motivation it gives them to do better, if no matter what they do, they come home with developing, for example, or proficient. But even emerging, if you really have some challenges in a subject and the teacher needs to work with you more, if you're always emerging, I wonder if that's really beneficial in the long run to motivate a child to do better or work harder or spend more time on a subject.

Adam Gifford

Well, it just won't be, though, because I don't think that those descriptors ... particularly if you're getting them all the time, you just come to expect them, right? I don't think that they'll ... Well, I imagine if they do motivate people, there'll be a tiny number that that actually works for, because the reality is, if you are getting those all the time, there's questions that have to be asked at the school. I've been into plenty of schools, working with some children, and they're in ... I don't know if it's termed the same in Canada or around the world, but there's a booster group. These are children that usually need additional support because they're not meeting the expectations of the curriculum, in quite big chunks, if you like. And I talk to these children and sort of say, "Oh, guys, what's this group about?"

And they're like, "Oh, we don't get it. We don't get the maths, or we don't get this. So Mr. James helps us out," and da, da, da. Oh yeah, yeah. So this is our booster group."

"Oh, how long have you been in the booster group?"

"Oh, well, I've been in it since year one."

"Really?" And it's year six now. And I don't say these words, but I think, "What a crap booster group. It's not really working, is it? It's not boosting anything." And I think these are the things. If the children are getting the same thing, like I had a mate ... And I found it sad. I found it sad now that I'm older, and I think I've talked about him before, that he always knew which class he was going to be in. He always knew which class he was going to be.

It was the one with the kids that couldn't read, because he couldn't read until his sort of teens. And he just knew. So by that stage, there was no motivation. There was no anything. It was just like, "Yeah, you're front up." And they call out your name. They call out the teacher's name. He knew, he knew he'd be the last one in the hall with the other kids that couldn't read. And they'd all look at each other and that; but brave face, and all that. But I reckon that must have just been devastating.

But the point is, is that if you are not reading when you're 13 or 14, the system's failed you. There's things that should have been ... rather than just writing a report card saying, "Emerging, emerging, emerging, emerging," the flipping fire alarm should have been pulled, "Hey, something needs to happen."

And I think that's the thing, is it's not just about reporting. That's lazy. If it's just, "This is your grade," that's just lazy, and we've got to be better. And whatever the descriptors are, they should just be telling us, "All right, this child is doing well, but this is how we're going to get them better. And whatever the descriptor they fall into, that's what we're going to do." But I certainly think for those children ... And not at the expense of other children making really good progress, but if those children are getting further and further behind, then society's not going to benefit from children that, A, hate education, B, can't read, and C, can't do maths. That's the reality. And I think that these grades, they're not just there to say, "Oh, that's Andy's and that's Robin's. And that's just the way it goes." Sorry. You can tell I get really pissed off about this.

Andy Psarianos

No, that's good. That's great. And you bring a whole interesting point there, which we really did just not even talked about, is this fundamental principle of, so grades come from some form of assessment, right? Somebody's assessing what your ... I'm going to use the word performance again ... is, right, because that's all it is, right? Because you could have a crap day and not do well, right? This is not a form of your ability. So, how well did you perform on whatever the criteria is for measuring where you're at? And what's that information for? Is it just to measure what's happened? Because that sounds like usually what we're talking about, is, "This is a measure of what you've been able to do so far." Or is it a measure of, "This is what we need to do for this particular individual"? Because if you're not assessing for the sake of the children to make them better, what the heck are you assessing for? It's just going to be a bunch of numbers in spreadsheets, in somebody's computer, right? Who cares? It's just general statistics. You have to bring it back to them, right?

So there's an urgency to assessment. It's like, "I know where you're at. I know what you are capable of right now. Therefore, I'm going to formulate a plan for you, so that tomorrow, you're a little bit better than you were today," right? And that's really what assessment should be all about in the classroom level, right? And then the other statistical stuff is just general information as to, should we go that way, or should we go a little bit to the right or a little bit to the left, right? And the education systems can tweak things long term from the statistical data. That's what it should really work like, but I don't think it does.

There's a lot of stakeholders, because parents are big factor in this too, right? Just think about it. What are the motivators here, right? So as a teacher, I may be a bit cynical, as a teacher, me, who through sheer laziness, always searching the most efficient way to do things, right ... So I'm a terribly efficient person, because I'm terribly lazy. That's not actually true, but that's a Robert A. Heinlein idea. There was a book that he wrote about a guy who's the most successful guy ever, because he was so lazy that he always looked for the best way to do things, right? Anyway, it's an interesting idea. I would just give all my kids As because it's like, "The parents are happy. The kids are happy. I'm happy. Everybody thinks I'm a great teacher." So, it's going to blow up later. Who cares, right? Everything's okay right now.

Robin Potter

Everyone's doing fantastically well-

Andy Psarianos

Look at that.

Robin Potter

... feels great about themselves. Hey, there you go.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, which is that happy, happy trophy culture that we have where everybody gets a trophy, right?

Robin Potter

It's that coddling culture, I like to call it.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, coddling culture. Yeah. And so, is that right? Is that the right way to do things? I don't know.

Robin Potter

That is the question. I don't know either.

Andy Psarianos

Oh, boy. I don't think we have enough time to solve this problem.

Robin Potter

No.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, we need to come back to this one. My brain's just going for it now. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

All right. Well, thank you, everyone.

Thank you for joining us on School of School podcast.