Episode 153: Invisible Children - Can some learners get forgotten

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is The School of School podcast.

Welcome to the School of School podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another episode of The School of School post 150 episode, second in the UK podcast. How are we doing, Andy and Robin, we're good?

Robin Potter

Wow, what an intro. Yes, we're great.

Adam Gifford

Well, get it in while we can. Listen, we're just going to work with these stats. Why not? Why can't we do this?

Robin Potter

Yes.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah.

Robin Potter

Agree. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

That's right. Love it.

Adam Gifford

I was having a conversation the other day and I was thinking about this, and I just wonder if this is a thing in all walks of life and whether or not we just need to be reminded about this in education and also the role of... there's so many things come into education, but I'll try to tighten this up a little bit. It's those children or people that always do the right thing, that turn up, do everything right. They never put a foot wrong. I'm not talking about overtly, "Look at me, what I'm doing. I'm doing something amazing." But the children that do that, and I wonder whether or not these children can become invisible and whether it's something that we need to manage really well. Particularly as, and I think this is fair to say, when we hear responses from teachers, when we listen to politicians about the role of schools. And that's probably another episode in itself, taking on some of the issues that are sort of prevalent in society.

The more we take on, do we have the potential for those children to become invisible because we're looking at other things in our classroom that take precedence, or at least they're in our consciousness more than maybe the child that just turns up every day and does the right thing?

Robin Potter

There's a lot of other elements in the classroom with different groups and different maybe even mental health concerns and labels, that there's a lot more going on these days. And I can see how attention is being put on, we'll call them the fringe group. I don't know even if that's fair. And so, yeah. And I see that the kids that are just showing up, doing their work, not causing any classroom issues, get left behind or at least become invisible, as you said, Adam. And I'm not sure how we change that.

Adam Gifford

I think we've got to be conscious, I think that's the thing. I think that the more I think about it that we actually need to be really conscious that we're attending to all children. I think that's the first thing. Because I think that when it comes to teaching, there are always things that happen in the classroom or schools, those sorts of things. And whether it's behaviour. So, that is a definite attention grabber because we need to have good behaviour in class for learning to take place. We can't learn without a good classroom environment and that sort of behaviour. But I think it's those other things that we start to think about. We think about social care, we think about problems that exist that schools more and more take on.

And I think that if we are not careful when particularly those teachers that may not have the experience to attend to lots of different things because they're still learning their trade, then I think that just being mindful and asking yourself, "When's the last time I had a conversation with that child? When's the last time I learned something new about that child? When's the last time I can talk about what they've done in a lesson?" And I think that if we look around the classroom and see that we can't answer those questions, we've got to do something about it. But sometimes that's hard. I just think the more that... and we're coming out to an election cycle, you hear that there's perhaps more that needs to be done in schools, and that worries me.

Andy Psarianos

Look at the landscape of being a teacher for a minute. So in a classroom, you've got those who clearly need attention. So let's say the struggling learners. At some point you need to make a decision and say, "Okay, these guys are struggling, I need to attend to this." So that draws you towards them. And then the other thing that's likely to draw your attention is those who've already finished, like, "I gave those guys something and they're done." So I need to address that. Because if I don't, then it could be a waste of time or in your mind, you're thinking, "My job is to keep everyone percolating all the time." And those in the middle who are doing what you want them to do and are working at the sort of pace that you expect them to, you're almost going to pay less attention to them because they don't need anything.

So at the heart, the problem starts like this, I think. And you could see there's some logic behind that. But then of course, now you take on what Robin's factored in, which is like, "Okay, well, the landscape isn't that simple anymore." Now you've got people who are like... there's behavioural problems, there are requirements that particular pupils are requesting because of the way they identify or whatever the case may be. And there's all these other things that you now all of a sudden the landscape has become much more complicated. And everybody wants to do a good job, no one wants to offend anybody, let's work on that assumption. Nobody's trying to offend anybody. No one's trying to do a horrible job, but all of a sudden it's that much more complicated. So what do you do?

I heard a parent say the other day, this is somebody that I know. They said, "Hey, my kid... I know my kid's troublesome. I know my kid is disruptive in class, I know that. But I'm a single parent and I'm doing the best that I can." But now the school's told me that they don't want my son to go on the school trip because he's too disruptive. Okay, wait a minute now, hold on. What do you guys think of that?

Robin Potter

Yeah.

Adam Gifford

That's a tough one.

Robin Potter

Oh, you're throwing us some meaty stuff here. Because on the one side, if I'm that parent, it would be heartbreaking to think that my child couldn't participate in something like that. On the flip side, from the school's perspective, the trip is going to be probably much easier without having to focus on the one child that's got the behavioural issues. But does that mean, are they able to say, "Okay, you're not allowed to come, but you are"? I mean, where does that start?

Adam Gifford

Yeah. And I think for me, I've said this so many times countless number of times on this podcast that we're in the relationships game. So I think that what it always comes down to is what do you know about the child and how can you make it work? Because ultimately it's not about that single trip. It's about saying, can this child be in school and learn without being disruptive, full stop? You can have the stick side of it, but ultimately, that self-regulation to say, "This is the context in which I'm in at the moment. This is what I need to do to it." And I think that's the difficulty is that with all of these, whether it's the child that does everything really well... And I'm probably guilty of exacerbating that, look at the children that need the challenge, look at the children that need the support.

Because obviously there's some training sessions where we're like, "And if children are learning, leave them alone." But that doesn't mean that you don't get to know those children. And I think that's the difference. And I think that when it comes to behavioural issues, what I've said to, I don't know, loads and loads of teachers that are starting out, and certainly this is the advice that I followed, is get to know the child. It's the only way, it's the only way that you can have that long-term impact on behaviour is to try to understand why it exists, where does it come from? Right at the very beginning, not at the point where something's gone wrong, but way before that.

So I think that the questions, I guess that I'd be asking around that trip, and it's difficult to comment without knowing the details of it. If the child's been told 16 times, "If you do this, you're not going to go on the trip." And they continue to do it 16 times, then yeah, school's got to be consistent in their approach too. But I think the big picture for me is where does that sit in terms of a plan that's going to help that child? Because that child's not going to want to be like that. They're not going to want to feel like that. They're not going to want to feel alienated. And all the bravado in front that I've ever seen on children inside, they're not feeling great.

And given the choice, they don't want to be like that, they don't want to feel like that. So it's kind of like, well, how do you manage that and how do you get into a situation where they can just be meaningful? Rather than just, depending if it's just a blunt force, "No, you're not going." Because that'll have its own impact.

Robin Potter

Sorry, just coming back around. We're talking now about the children that have the behavioural issues. What about going back to... and what about that group that just are there showing up every day doing what they're supposed to do?

Andy Psarianos

What you've got to understand is that the tension to address the fringe is so immense all the time, right?

Robin Potter

It is. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

This kid's got behavioural issues, this person needs my attention for this reason. This person is falling behind, this person finished what we were supposed to do today last year. Those things, they're all dragging you towards like, "I need to pay attention to this situation." And the quiet majority in the middle are the ones that well, look, I think you can address it, I think what Adam said is very wise. You need to say to yourself, "No matter what happens, bare minimum, I need to do this, this, this, this for every child." That's your starting point, "And then whatever is left over and above that, then I will address all these other issues," is a way that you can approach it.

But that requires a tremendous amount of discipline, and it's very easy to be steered away from that in a day-to-day situation. You can make whatever plans you'd like at the beginning of the year, but you still have to face what's going on in the classroom every day.

Robin Potter

And I'm sure that both of you could think of stories in the classroom where the behaviour was really out of control. I certainly have. I have a friend who's a teacher who's last year with a twelve-year-old girl in her class, and she's been teaching for over 20 years. And she said she's never experienced anything like it. And this child took up all of her time. How do you rein that in? How do you go back to focusing on the students that are just doing their job?

Adam Gifford

And I've made those decisions, so it's not, I sit here and go, "Oh yeah, Andy, that's..." The trip not being done, I've done that, I've stopped children from going on trips. I've imposed plenty of sanctions in my time. No question about that. I think the biggest thing for me is it's a discipline and it's a habit that you put in place like saying good morning to every child, every morning. And sometimes there will be parents that want to speak to you or children that want to show you something or whatever it might be. But I think that that's where there has to be... It's really hard. But I think if you understand that you have to do that. Not the good morning necessarily, but that discipline of being able to park something and being able to park things like frustration. So, spending hours upon hours, upon hours, trying to support a child, to modify their behaviour and do it through a way that's like, "I'll get to know you."

Not just like, stick, stick, stick. Because these children often, if you're talking about serious behavioural stuff, they're used to that. That's not a deterrent or that's not going to modify behaviour. Usually these children, there's something missing or whatever it might be. But you got to get to know them. But I think it's the ability to park it and remember that responsibility of your 30 children. I think that's the part that almost that doesn't need to be said aloud because we can't just assume that it happens for the reasons that were talked about. It is very easy with limited time to get sidetracked or to feel exhausted because you've just put two hours in working with someone or the parents, those sorts of things.

So, I think that it's making sure that you remember that these other children are there. And I know there'll be plenty of people that might shout at the... I was about to say, shout at the radio. That's old school, it's not radio. But you know what I mean? Shouting at whatever device you're listening to, going, "Well, of course you think about those children." But I promise you it's easy, it's easy not... Or you'll surprise yourself if you ask those questions, "When's the last time I talked to that child about something just about them, just something to do with them?" And sometimes I think we might be a little bit surprised at the number of days that can go in between whilst we're focusing on other things.

Andy Psarianos

Thank you for joining us on The School of School Podcast.