Episode 154: Mobile phones at school

Andy Psarianos

Hi, I'm Andy Psarianos.

Robin Potter

Hi, I'm Robin Potter.

Adam Gifford

Hi, I'm Adam Gifford.

Andy Psarianos

This is the School of School Podcast. Welcome to the School of School Podcast.

Adam Gifford

Welcome back. It's another episode of The School Of School podcast, the regulars are with us. That is Andy and that is Robin. And it's lovely to see you both today. Are you well?

Robin Potter

Feeling great. Yeah.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, I'm great. Thanks for asking.

Adam Gifford

That's good. Days getting longer, bit more sun in the sky for a little bit longer, which is nice, which is fantastic. Listen, something that's hit the media here, but I suspect it's probably hit the media all over the world, not the policy or the governmental advice, but just as a general theme, there was an announcement made by the government about advice given for mobile phones, and I was listening to the Education Minister talk about it as part of the sort of press release rounds. And what was being said often was, this was based on old information and they were sort of saying there needs to be advice there. There needs to be policies in place. But I think for the vast majority of schools, they've already got a policy in place.

Now, I think government advice is always good because you need to refer to it and uniformity... No, I don't mean the content's good, but it's good that there's something that we can have a look at to see what it is, the uniformity around something, because sometimes it's left to schools and that can be really hard, like just, "You guys decide for yourselves," because you don't have the backup necessarily when you are lacking governmental advice. So you've got nothing to refer to at all. So now this is in place, but I think what it broadens it out to is there's plenty of people that are saying there shouldn't be mobile phones, smartphones. I've heard quite strong arguments for no smartphones at all for under 16's, like take smartphones away, so you get the phones from yesteryear, that are communication devices, and that's it.

I've heard other commentators talking about, "We need phones, they're just part of everyday living. And to take them away from children, it just shouldn't happen." However, they should be a set behaviour with them at schools and they shouldn't be used. Through to, "They're a really efficient tool that we can use." It's a really difficult area. I think it's difficult as parents, but it's difficult in school. So I just wonder where your thoughts are on this.

Andy Psarianos

I think the argument that this is part of modern day life is a valid one and it needs to be considered. And I think that if you ban the use... Okay, I'll be a bit controversial here, right? What's the difference between burning books and banning mobile phones?

Adam Gifford

Okay, here's the difference. I'll throw one back to you, here's the difference. And this is, again, this probably broadens it out to, is it the phone or is it the platforms there? So the counter argument to that is that the type of books that you would find in a school is different to the type of content that you'd have in a phone at school. So some children are seeing some pretty horrific stuff that if you were to get it in book form, going back to when we were kids, it was probably infinitely more difficult to get your hands on. Your turn.

Andy Psarianos

Okay, so at the heart it's a censorship thing?

Adam Gifford

I don't know.

Andy Psarianos

Is that what you saying?

Adam Gifford

I don't know, I'm not sure.

Andy Psarianos

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what's the issue? Is it that we want to censor what kids have access to? In which case you've already lost a battle because the minute they walk out of the school, the world is there for them to be shocked by. Or is it a question of this is just a distraction and kids are not listening because they're on Snapchat. Or is it something to do with behaviour, right? This is modifying people's behaviour, lie it's an addiction, like a drug. Or is it all those things?

Robin Potter

Yeah. It's probably all of those things, but I think the last two are particularly important when you're talking about school, being in a classroom and something other than the teacher has your attention the entire time. Or you can't focus because you're distracted constantly, whether it's through texting, whether it's social media, whether it's some app, TikTok, whatever it is. And that makes it hard for the teacher. And you hear different teachers have different policies where sometimes they collect the phones as soon as the kids walk in the door. Others just allow it and hope for the best. And we've talked about this a little bit on past episodes, and again, from what I've heard, because I know in Canada, different provinces have different rules on this. Where some just have banned phones altogether from school hours and others have not.

And the one thing that keeps coming up is that it's the parents saying, "Oh no, but my child needs a phone. I need to be able to get ahold of my child during the day." Which is a bit of a joke because you can pick up the phone and call the main line at the school and ask for your child's... At any time, as can they. So yeah, I don't think it's about censorship and being the ones that decide what our children are looking at in terms of content. I think it's just, is it appropriate to have your phone at your desk while learning maths? And so that's the big debate in my eyes.

Adam Gifford

Yeah, I agree, Robin. I think that the word addiction gets thrown around a lot, but I think that aside, even if children... They're designed to keep people on, so a lot of the technologies that keep people gambling, underpinning stuff to keep you looking and flicking through, whether it's Snapchat or whatever, it doesn't matter what it is, TikTok, doesn't matter. And I think you're right, and I think that most schools, I'll be amazed if there are schools that say you can have your phones during lessons. I think there were some schools... I knew of some schools, but this is going back a few years now that tried to incorporate them, tried to sort of say, "All right, we accept that this is just part of you growing up, so we'll use them as tools."

But what I suspect has probably happened is that as the likes of TikTok grow and that never ending content is available to you, to keep you coming back for more and more and more, I think it's probably just too difficult and unrealistic to think that the phones can be used as a learning tool in your just day-to-day lessons. I think the temptation for most people, certainly of that age, is too great. That's what I suspect. I don't know, I don't know this for fact, but that's what I would've thought.

Andy Psarianos

Well, I think most schools know how to block websites through their firewalls at school and stuff. And I would imagine that most of them probably block things like TikTok and maybe even go beyond Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and do things like YouTube and Vimeo and other video streaming services and things like that. But they're also useful learning tools. There's been more than one classroom I've been to where someone was streaming of YouTube video, because there's great content by somebody. It could be historical, it could be just knowledge based stuff or whatever. And I think we've all can think and imagine situations where these things are useful. So if we focus in on the sort of addictive and distractive nature of these things, they're basically stopped the learning from happening. I think schools are totally justified, absolutely justified in saying, "No, not in this class." But also there may be cases, and I'm thinking of secondary school, where actually you encourage them to use them for research and to use things that are what I would say unconventional research tools, like as a lesson.

Because if you say to people, "Hey, I want you to find out about this, but I want you to use these rubbish sources." Like why do we have rubbish sources, they're not necessarily rubbish sources, but unfiltered sources. Don't want you to go to the dictionary or encyclopaedia or some reference material or some university website or something. I just want you to go and find out, should Donald Trump be elected? And I want you to use Facebook, right? Okay. Or I want you to use Instagram or I want you to use YouTube. And then that could become a valuable lesson as well. So I guess what I'm saying is you can incorporate it in your lessons.

I think maybe... I guess what I'm trying to get at is maybe that should be part of the curriculum is like, "Hey, this thing exists and it's in your hand. What good can it do and what bad can it do? Let's have that as a discussion." Maybe that's a lesson. Maybe we need to spend more time training children how to use these things that are available to them. But then in some classes, like in math, say, "Yeah, put it away. You can't use it in this class. You're going to use it in your social studies class."

Robin Potter

That sounds reasonable that there are certain classes that could benefit from the discussion that a phone may allow in the class.

Adam Gifford

And I think that you could probably make that argument for every class, I think. I think the difficulty is, and what's... I don't know, as we talk about it, what I think might happen is we're thinking about how the use of these phones fit into our teaching model has gone faster... The phone use, the what's available and all that, has gone so much faster than the time it takes to consider using these things well while you're still delivering the programme. So if I'm a history teacher delivering GCSE history, I've got my course that I think about every year, but I still have to deliver it and I still got to get these children GCSE ready, but you also want to take time out to go, "But how can I incorporate this so it's rich and useful?" Now the easiest is the blunt tool, which is put the phones away and we'll continue to do what we've always done or make the regular modifications you might make each year that you're teaching the programme.

But I think to use it really well, to use phones really well... Across the board, I mean. Because there will be schools that'll be doing some pretty amazing work and researchers and academics doing some pretty incredible work around this. But across the board, there'd be a lot of people in a position where they've just not had the time to do that justice, or haven't given the time perhaps, or don't have the expertise. Because I think that must be really tough, if someone just said to me, "Right, use a phone in this lesson." The first thing that pops into my mind is, "All right, just give me some time to think about it though. Don't ask me for that right now." To do it well, I'd need to think about how it integrates into the lesson and what are the opportunities to make that work. And that takes time.

Andy Psarianos

And the other problem that you have is that, like you said, whatever it is that... You have to give away some of the Draconian dictatorship element of being a teacher if you open that can of worms, because things move so quickly, like you highlighted, that whatever point you're trying to make, everything might've shifted in two days as far as content goes as to what's being surfaced. So yeah, it's user beware. So I think the thing that I would say, Adam, about if you wanted to do something like this is that you'd have to focus in on first principles and not on skills. And by that what I mean is you could never say with any kind of sense of certainty, say, "Well, this is a Snapchat class, we're going to teach you how to use Snapchat appropriately." Or, "We're going to teach you how to use Facebook appropriately," is a nonsense thing because every day the interface changes. Every day something new is added and something is taken away.

So it's just like water under a bridge, it's constantly flowing. But what you can do is say, "Okay, using the tools that are available to you, I want you to do this." Knowing that what you're really trying to make is a larger point. Not about the specifics, not about how to use some... I used to teach in the graphic arts years ago, I used to teach, and I remember I showed up in the school and I taught a software programme called Freehand. And at the time that I taught it, Freehand was in its last version ever made because it got bought out by another company, and there was another tool that was being used in industry called Illustrator. And this is an illustration software, and I'm teaching people how to use a tool that I know is like they're never going to use, ever.

So what I can't do is focus the entire class on, "Oh, if you want to draw a lasso, this is how you do it and this is the tool and this is where you find it in the menu and all this kind of stuff," because all that stuff is redundant information already. So I need to focus the class on how to use a digital tool to draw illustrations and what are the general principles of drawing Bézier curve and blah blah blah and whatever, and fill in spaces and all... The principles of illustration, not the principles of how this tool works. And I guess if you can carry that analogy forward to anything that we teach, really, and it's true of most subjects, you can't... We talked about this, teaching skills is almost pointless in most cases, right? Because the skills change so quickly and you got to teach the principles behind those skills. I don't know, did that make any sense?

Robin Potter

It does make sense. And everything you're saying makes sense, but I'm just going to throw it in another direction for a moment. We've been talking about how we can positively use a phone in schools, but now... And we've talked about how we can incorporate it into classroom coursework, but I'm starting to think now, what about age? So primary school, not all kids have phones first of all, but many probably do nowadays. So is any of this relevant to a primary school aged pupil? I mean, that seems young.

Andy Psarianos

Well, they use calculators in the class, and there's a calculator on the phone. So if somebody says, "Get your calculator out," And a kid whips out an Android phone or an iPhone and uses that, is that okay?

Adam Gifford

I think it's going to be less so though, isn't it? I think it'll be less so though, Robin. And I think just by the very nature of that, not everyone will have one, even though a chunk will, and certainly not the youngest. So it would be uncommon for them to... What I mean is to have it with them during the day at school. If a parent dropped them off, if they were very young, how many kids are walking home when they're very young or... I don't know. But I think that where it's more difficult because I think that it's also an expectation. Children are developing that sense of, "I've got my smartphone." Because really we're talking about smartphones here, as opposed to an old schooler, just text and call.

You'd be hard-pressed, I would've thought, to find too many people in secondary education, children I mean, pupils that don't have a smartphone. I would've thought by now. In primary school, I think the vast majority of children would not be at all phased about if they did have a phone for whatever reason, dropping it in at the school office and picking it up at the end of the day, I don't think there'd be any kickback. Whereas maybe if you're 16, 17, maybe you're thinking, "Actually, no. Don't treat me like a primary school child. I'm going to have my phone on me. It's just part of who I am. It's part of what I do."

Robin Potter

Just going to schools and having a school visit that we've all experienced, yeah, I have yet to see... And obviously they may be on their best behaviour when we're visiting, but I've yet to see kids on their phones during a maths lesson in primary school at that age, they're very engaged and focused on the teacher, at least it appears that they are. I don't know. So yeah, again, I think it's easier, Adam, when not all children have phones, that this doesn't have to be as much of a big deal because I think being able to say, "No phones in the classroom," puts everyone on a level playing field because they don't all have them, versus high school where almost all of them have them.

Andy Psarianos

Here's an interesting thing that just transpired, Adam, while you were talking before Robin spoke, my watch, I have a digital watch that's linked to my smartphone, buzzed my wrist, and I looked at it and it was an Instagram post from my daughter. And I looked at it and I spent probably a second and a half looking at it, and then I put my head back up and then I realised, I have no idea what you said. I have no idea what you said, okay?

Adam Gifford

That's the reality, right?

Robin Potter

And that was a second and a half.

Andy Psarianos

And it was like at least a second and a half, and I completely lost the thread of what you were talking about. And then I was trying to catch up, "What's he saying? What's he doing? Can I piece this together?" I just caught myself doing it. It wasn't like... And I don't get that many messages. Some of these kids are getting message after message after message.

Robin Potter

And that's a whole other thing now that you've just brought that up. It's very easy to ignore a phone if you put it on silent and on vibrate. So many kids now have it attached to their wrist and are constantly being notified every time they get a message, as are you. So that's a whole other element, that's constant distraction.

Adam Gifford

I've seen my son... My son has now got this thing where he's always seemed to have one-

Andy Psarianos

Yeah, my son has one too.

Adam Gifford

ear pod in and he's got quite long hair, so it's easily disguised. There's times where I'm talking away to him, thinking, "He's being particularly attentive." He's not at all. He's listening to something and then he'll turn around, "Sorry, what was that?" Mate, I'm just talking to you about this. But he's got the stealth ear button that of course if your phone goes or whatever, it's just going to read it to you. It's just going to tell you, "Oh, blah, blah, blah, this has happened or whatever." And depending on the significance of that, like you're saying, Andy, you're gone.

So if that was just, I don't know, some bike shop having a sale or something and you just got a bit of spam or something, that might not distract you in the same way that your daughter... Of course you're going to be interested, it's your daughter. And so of course that's going to grab your attention or all of the... Like anything, I've got to make sure everything's switched off because I'm so hopeless. If something shoots across the screen that's of some significance, you guys are gone. I've stopped listening to you, stopped doing everything, and that's-

Andy Psarianos

And it's happening... I think the point there that you're making, both of you, super important is the stealthiness of it. Because now you can do it... And now with this Neuralink kind of idea, which I know is... That's progressing, where it's not even an external device, there's this possibility now of having implants. All this technology is emerging and coming.

Adam Gifford

Same with glasses.

Andy Psarianos

Glasses.

Adam Gifford

Yeah. Same with glasses.

Andy Psarianos

Yeah. It could be your glasses.

Adam Gifford

My son was talking about the Apple Vision Pro and basically saying it's like Iron Man, this has got all the things and it won't be long until it's slimmed down and we just wear them like this. And I think the primary school, just thinking going back to primary school is that that's just kicking the can down the road. So at the moment, I can sit here and say, "Yeah, most primary schools, this is the norm, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But this technology is going to become more part of us. Like we talk about, like you're saying Andy, about whether it's things in the ears, the glasses, the whatever. I mean the shift. To your watch, all of that sort of stuff. The fact that you are constantly connected.

I think that, yeah, there's a lot, it's playing catch up and brute force policies about just not having... That's just Draconian. I think the reality is what schools are trying to do, I suspect, which is to deal with it with a bit more nuance, a bit more intelligence, and trying to work within the realms of some of the advances that are being made, some of which are harmful, but some of which we've never been in a richer time, you could argue for some things. So yeah, it's an interesting one and it will be really interesting to see how it unfolds over time.

Andy Psarianos

We need to wrap it up, but Adam, I think you nailed it when you said, actually the real problem is that schools can't keep up with the rate of progress evolution in the real world. It doesn't matter what you look at, this is just another manifestation of it. And yeah, we need to start thinking a lot more about this and how we deal with it, because this is obviously going to become more and more of a problem. Thank you for joining us on the School of School Podcast.